Episode 8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Episode 8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Post by Vince T » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:42 pm

ok let's go into depth with this one. I'm creating this thread to discuss the movie in more depth than the other thread.

And, in case you overread it in the title, this thread includes SPOILERS!



Starting things off there was two scenes I felt fairly strongly for, which I will dump my thoughts here.

First one is Kylo Ren killing Snoke.
While one can debate whether or not there was an internal struggle within him, I feel that this move ultimately served as the conclusion he had originally desired by killing his father.Unlike there, he was absolutely focused and sure of what he did.

While it might seem a parallel to Vader killing Palpatine, Kylo's motivations were obviously different from Vader's. I would even go so far that by killing SNoke, Kylo, knowingly or not, adhered to the classic Sith doctrine of the apprentice overthrowing the master, which would in theory, make him a proper Dark Lord of the Sith, if Snoke had ever held to that title.

Next thing that kinda left an impact me was Luke's death. Why did he die? Was it a result of him having exhausted himself projecting himself across the galaxy to fight/stall Kylo Ren? Or, is there some logical parallel to the way Rey fired at Kylo at the beginning and he, while not being wounded, could yet kinda feel as if the shot had hit him? If so, could it be that when Kylo cut Luke's apparition in half, the force sent an echo of that to Luke, strong enough to mortally wound him?

Thoughts?

On a small side note towards forum members from Germany, is it just me or did Yoda's sync voice actually sound more like the actor from the classic trilogy than the one from the prequels/Clone Wars? That was a nice touch :)
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Post by The Saxman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:25 am

The movie was one big anticlimax.

Two years of wild speculation over the identity of Rey's parents? Especially since The Force Awakens made such a big deal about the mystery? IE the way Kylo reacted when a subordinate told him "a girl" helped BB-8 escape Jakku, how Han immediately latched onto her, or the pained expression when Maz asked who she was, to say nothing of the fact that ANAKIN'S LIGHTSABER called out to her?

Yeah, sorry. Turns out her parents are the sort of people you'd see having CPS called on them on an episode of Cops.

Two years of questions over who Snoke is, where did he come from? How did he get his hooks into Ben? If he's not a Sith Lord then what is he?

Eh, doesn't really matter. He dies like a punk 2/3 of the way through the second movie.

It's like Rian Johnson's entire goal in the movie was to troll the fans.

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Post by squarehead93 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:46 am

I give this movie a lot of credit for taking the risks it did, especially given how close to the chest TFA played things. Personally, I loved it, despite some serious flaws. That said, I predict this is gonna be one of the most divisive entries in the saga.

Snoke's death was the biggest surprise, but a welcome one to be sure. Yeah, I got sucked into all the fan theories about his origin as much as anyone, but the one theory no one considered is that he was a red herring. To be honest, as much fun as it was to create increasingly outlandish theories about him, Snoke wasn't that compelling of a villain in either movie. I'm also fine with Hux being reduced to comic relief. Again, at least they're doing something with him now. Seeing Phasma get punked again was hard on me, but the way she went out, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the last we see of her.

I know a lot of people had beef with Luke being a grumpy, sad old man and not some badass Jedi from the start. But that seems way more believable to me, and makes his character more nuanced. Making him just this one sided badass Jedi at the start of the movie would have seemed super fan fiction-y. Again, you can disagree with the direction TLJ took him, but it took him in a direction. Plus, it's one of the instances where the movie does "rhyme" with TESB, where Yoda was the original reluctant teacher training an eager Luke. And still got a little taste of Luke being a badass at the end, which was a great send-off.

Speaking of send-offs, that princess Leia scene surprised me, and it seems to be one of everyone's biggest issues with the film. Yeah, I thought it was cheesy too. I expected that to be the scene where they killed her off to deal with the real-life loss of Carrie Fisher, right up to when we see her floating gracefully in space, until she opens her eyes and flies back. Not that I object to having every minute of the late Fisher's last performance put into TLJ.

The Finn and Rose scenes on Canto Bight we're definitely the weakest link, but I don't hate the character of Rose the way some do. I thought she was sweet and helped develop Finn's character. Not everyone has to be the most compelling/lovable person in Star Wars

I suspect that isn't the last we'll hear about Rey's parents. Kylo Ren was either lying or not being fully forthcoming about her lineage. Even if her parents are no one special, I suspect she's still someone of importance in the galaxy. I also suspect we'll learn more about Snoke in the next episode in some form or another.

I did have some suspension of disbelief issues to nitpick at here. One being how Holdo's lightspeed jump is, like the Starkiller Base's laser blast, instantly visible from light years away. Star Wars has always played fast and loose with physics, but that one's hard to believe. Also, how is the Resistance possibly in worse shape than the Rebels ever were in the OT? They started off TLJ with 4 capital ships, maybe 2-3 squadrons of fighters, including the bombers, and like 400 miscellaneous personnel. And by the end, the entire remainder of the Resistance can literally fit inside the Millennium Falcoln. Did the Republic literally park every last ship they owned above Hosnian Prime when Starkiller Base destroyed it? I would think that if they had enough resources to support the Resistance, they'd at least have a few ships still wandering around. Maybe what's left of them has been regrouping during this movie and will link up with the Resistance in episode 9 after the distress signal went out.

The movie also doesn't really leave us much to work with as far as predicting the next episode.

But all said and done, I was entertained throughout. And I loved Rian Johnson's "there are no sacred cows" approach to Star Wars. I love that Luke expressed doubts about how important the Jedi ever were, and that the Force was bigger than they ever were. I love that Johnson challenged our fan theories on Rey's parents and Snoke's origin. TLJ keeps Star Wars fresh, and I'm all about that.

Edit: going off what The Saxman said, I do hope Johnson wasn't just trying to retcon everything he didn't like that JJ Abrams did. I'm a bit concerned that Disney is pulling a DC, where the overarching story is changed and re-written from movie to movie, but we'll have to wait one more episode to see if that's true.
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Post by DTM » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:22 am

Among many things, I really liked Yoda, for the first time since the days of ESB: I found the spirit he had when he said he was not a "great warrior", and played with Luke's flashlight. This aspect of the character was completely lost in the prequels. It is not necessary to be serious, to show one's own wisdom.

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Post by Vince T » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:27 pm

Yeah I know what you mean. That classic Yoda always reminded me of a wise old kung-fu Master from those old Jackie Chan movies :D
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Post by CIDlord_1973 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:14 pm

Well, ep 8 was better than 7 (the worst for me).
This time they worked the eviroments much better.
The problem is...Han, Luke, Phasma and even Snoke died.
Of course all we know Leia will be dead at ep9 too.
I lose more, and more interest in this new canon.
The new characters are not so interesting to me.
Rey is ok, Poe is not bad...but i hate Finn with all my soul...and now Rose for saving his life.
I allways said that if Rey isn't a Skywalker, it gonna suck...and that's what's happening.
I don't know what they'll do for op9, but i suspect that gonna enjoy much more the spin off movies, like Rogue one or Han Solo's.

About Yoda...i think they should use ep3 cgi.
In ep8 looks a bit weird, like the first versions of Jabba at ep4.

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Post by Vince T » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:38 pm

I disagree. I didn't really realize Yoda was a puppet until I read it online, at that point I was really happy, seing as how they had actually taken Yoda all the way back to his pre-prequel days. I couldn't imagine a better hommage to the classic films.

Same with Rey, to be frank, Rey being a Skywalker seems one of the least appealing possibilities to me, since there are other posssible arcs way more interesting than that, my favorite still being Rey being a descendant from Palpatine.

I read an EW interview with Johnson today, where that question came up, as well. So, from his perspective both Kylo and Rey believe what has been "revealed" about Rey's origins. While RJ didn't explicitly confirm or deny that being a lie or not, he definitely leaves things to interprettation and, in by long shot, JJ Abrans to either solidify those roots or to come up with a different truth, which once again opens up many possibilities for speculation. Sneaky one, that Ryan!

Funnily enough, I've seen quite a few reviews now and different people tackling the same aspcts from totally different angles, e.g. some criticised Poe trolling Hux at the beginning, while others utterly adored that very scene. To me this movie shows one thing ever so clearly: Star Wars, as much as its fan community is no longer as clearly defined as it used to be, no more black and white, love or hate, but a lot of grey and, to quote an old pal, "even fuchsia" :D
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Post by squarehead93 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:40 pm

I agree with you, G_T, on Rey's parentage. Kylo Ren already is a Skywalker by way of Leia. Still, Rey is the one who Luke/Anakin's saber "called out" to, so I can understand the frustration with her being nobody. This is a movie, and this is Star Wars, so we're used to things like her parents having significance. I agree that that's probably not the last we'll hear of who Rey is, though.

I think I'm gonna have to watch this one again to get a better time. I feel like time will tell whether or not TLJ will be counted among the best or worst Star Wars films. A lot of it will have to do with how Episode 9 builds off it. At any rate, TLJ was entertaining to me and more than enough to hold me over for one last episode in a couple years.

EDIT: It's been so long and I'm so used to Reddit formatting that I put asterisks for italics and caught myself double-spacing paragraphs.
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Post by CIDlord_1973 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:52 pm

Ok, let's think Rey is just a random jedi.
Strong enough to beat a Skywalker in his prime without traininning?
Hmmm...then the Skywalker are not so strong...
It's like an ant beating an elephant.
They could be brothers...separated at some point to protect her.
Almost the same than Luke and Leia.
All other theories sounds too weird to me.

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Post by Jaeven » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:27 am

So after watching it again, here are my thoughts:

I loved it, but its not a flawless movie. There are some things that are good ideas, but are executed less well. For starters, the whole fleet chase was a tad too long for me. I also felt the Canto Bight story was a bit bizarre. They go there to find a master slicer, but then find a random dude that just so happens to be able to slice into the First Order flagship? Eh.
Finally, I can't believe they wasted Phasma for the second movie running. She shows up for five minutes before having yet another humiliating defeat. Given the fact her armor deflected blaster bolts, its possible she survived, but seeing how Abrams used her in TFA, she may as well remain dead.

The others I don't have much of a problem with. Snoke getting offed? No problem, I think Kylo is more interesting anyways. Luke dying? Inevitable. Hux being turned into comic relief? That's fine, he always did come across as an Imperial tryhard who nobody could possibly take seriously. Rey being a random nobody? More interesting anyways.

In addition, the movie has two of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars. The throne room scene was just perfect, and the moment where the Raddus rammed the Supremacy was just beautiful. The opening battle alone was worth the price of admission for me. Seeing those bombers take out the First Order Dreadnought (How awesome was that Captain btw?) was really neat, and those bombs they dropped reminded me of those in XWA.

I think the problem with Star Wars Movies that are not playing it safe (like TFA did) is that every person has a different understanding of what Star Wars is, simply because there has been so much content, whether that is movies, games, books or comics. I would imagine if TESB came out in today's age, people would criticize it in similar fashions as they do with TLJ.

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Post by The Saxman » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:48 am

Wasn't a fan of the Resistance bomber design at all. Who the heck designs a space bomber that can't launch its payload FORWARD? The design is practically begging to be annihilated with how it has to get literally on top of its target.

Incidentally, I read an article featuring an interview with Mark Hamil today where he pretty much disowns Johnson's writing for Luke, and that he argued against his characterization entirely. Unfortunately Johnson overruled him. Hamil was right on the money. ESPECIALLY the crap about him considering murdering his own nephew in COLD BLOOD while he slept.

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Post by Jaeven » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:55 pm

I think the design itself was refreshing, considering the new-but-same-TIEs and X-wings we got before. In addition, I think this is the first bomber we see whose sole purpose is to take out Star Destroyer sized ships, which is something I always wanted to see.

I'm torn on Luke. On the one hand, I feel his characterization is wrong, but on the other hand the Kylo moment is, as he says in the movie, just one quick shameful moment. Having seen the end scene, and the potential badass scenes we could have had with Jedi Master Luke makes me wish they hadn't gone that direction though.

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Post by Det. Bullock » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:13 am

DTM wrote:Among many things, I really liked Yoda, for the first time since the days of ESB: I found the spirit he had when he said he was not a "great warrior", and played with Luke's flashlight. This aspect of the character was completely lost in the prequels. It is not necessary to be serious, to show one's own wisdom.
To be fair, the events of the prequels are what made him that way, he had probably been beating himself over his own head for accepting to lead the clone army during the decades he passed on Dagobah.
The Saxman wrote:Wasn't a fan of the Resistance bomber design at all. Who the heck designs a space bomber that can't launch its payload FORWARD? The design is practically begging to be annihilated with how it has to get literally on top of its target.

Incidentally, I read an article featuring an interview with Mark Hamil today where he pretty much disowns Johnson's writing for Luke, and that he argued against his characterization entirely. Unfortunately Johnson overruled him. Hamil was right on the money. ESPECIALLY the crap about him considering murdering his own nephew in COLD BLOOD while he slept.
Some of the proposals Hamill had for the characters (and of which he talked about in some old interviews) were much less sound than what we got on screen. Actors aren't writers no matter how much they get into a role.
Besides, seeing Luke first in get off my lawn mode and then openly trolling and snarking at Rey when she fails to grasp exactly what the force is was awesome. Also Luke is the guy that the moment he saw the possibility of his sister getting hurt went berserk on the father he wanted to redeem.
Besides it's a common tragedy trope in acting to prevent a prophecy (in this case his vision of the future [?] evil of Ben Solo) only to make it come to pass.

Regarding the bombers, it's not like stuff like the S-foils thing ever made sense, in the end I liked the concept of B-52s IN SPACE!

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Post by Bman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:41 am

I liked this one better than Episode 7. There wasn't another "death-star" in it. :P This had more original and creative content like Rogue One. I was surprised too Snoke was taken out of the storyline so soon. Wanted to learn more about his background. Rey's parents... still a mystery.

Writing new creative material, plots, and story lines while maintaining traditional classic threads is hard to do, (using concepts from the expanded- universe/legacy canon helps) but I like this director who balances both. Will be interesting to see how Carrie Fisher's character is cleverly phased out of the next movie. Fun and refreshing movie overall.
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Post by DTM » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:39 am

The Saxman wrote:Wasn't a fan of the Resistance bomber design at all. Who the heck designs a space bomber that can't launch its payload FORWARD? The design is practically begging to be annihilated with how it has to get literally on top of its target
It's a bomber. It drops the bombs that fall by gravity. No torpedoes, bombs! Many people see the astronauts floating and they believe that there is no gravity in space: in gravity around a planet there is gravity ... and a lot!

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Post by Vince T » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:38 pm

Funnily enough I've seen new theories about Snoke's death actually being a ruse employed by himself. The lines leading up to his death state he can clearly feel Kylo turning the lightsaber and things. And, since it has been stated that he is by far the most powerful force user, while getting cut in half (even Maul survived that) may have destroyed his twisted corporal form, he might as well continue to exist in a disembodied form. Adding to this, in the end he also achieved his one goal - the elimination of Luke Skywalker. Or has he? :D
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Post by The Saxman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:50 pm

DTM wrote:
The Saxman wrote:Wasn't a fan of the Resistance bomber design at all. Who the heck designs a space bomber that can't launch its payload FORWARD? The design is practically begging to be annihilated with how it has to get literally on top of its target
It's a bomber. It drops the bombs that fall by gravity. No torpedoes, bombs! Many people see the astronauts floating and they believe that there is no gravity in space: in gravity around a planet there is gravity ... and a lot!
Even B-25s and Mosquitos during WWII could carry out glide-bombing techniques and didn't have to rely on level bombing (see also skip and lob bombing).

This isn't about the mechanics of how the bombs work. It's about a bomber design that maximizes time-over-target, and with it increased exposure to return fire. Everything a bomber wants to AVOID. And don't get me started that an entire formation can go up in flames because of splash damage from just ONE having its payload cooked off. A FAR more effective design would include some kind of launcher (perhaps a rail gun) that forces the bombs forward out of the magazine. The bombers can then launch at a distance, then break off the target minimizing how long they're exposed to defense batteries.

As for gravity: The only way those bombs drop is because of some artificial gravity shenanigans. Most likely is that the artificial gravity inside the bay allows the bombs to drop, and when they hit vacuum they retain the momentum from inside the bay (which means the bombs that are higher in the magazine would have more velocity than those at the bottom, since they're given more time to accelerate before they clear the bomber's AG field).

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Post by DTM » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:57 pm

I agree that the bombing strategy is a bit naive, but it is certainly spectacular!
About gravity: sorry if I insist, but if the spaceships are stationary above the planet, an artificial gravity device is not necessary to drop the bombs. The gravity of the planet is sufficient.

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Post by squarehead93 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:22 pm

Y'all are dissing the Resistance bomber like most of you didn't play the space battles in the original Battlefront II (2005), where any bomber's ordinance fell "down" on an arc.
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Post by The Saxman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:46 pm

I DIDN'T play Battlefront. I want an X-Wing game, not a glorified Battlefield/COD reskin.

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Post by Jaeven » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:21 pm

squarehead93 wrote:Y'all are dissing the Resistance bomber like most of you didn't play the space battles in the original Battlefront II (2005), where any bomber's ordinance fell "down" on an arc.
That whole game was a mess though. I remember the V-wing somehow being made a bomber, Tri Fighters shooting bullet chain guns, Venators firing shotguns and ISDs (with side hangars, lol) firing what was essentially a phaser from Star Trek.

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Post by squarehead93 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:26 pm

@Saxman: I was referring to the original Battlefront 2 from 2005. As far as I'm concerned, the EA Battlefront games don't exist. :D

I'm surprised there hasn't been talk of a new Star Wars space sim with the resurgence or simulator games.

@Jaeven: the space battles definitely played fast and loose with Star Wars. Victory star destroyers as frigates and regular TIE fighters with (unlimited) proton torpedoes bugged me. Plus, we lost fighter cover for every map except Hoth IIRC. The Bespin platforms and Tatooine Dune Sea levels from the first game were two of my favorites because of the ships.
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Post by Marcos_Edson » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:22 pm

Just came back from the theater, had no option but to see it dubbed, they used the Portuguese word for "warp" when talking about the ships in hyperspace, please tell me that's not what they say it in English...
I'm not sure yet how to feel about, in the end some stuff simply seemed unnecessary to begin with, like Poe"s mutiny and the mission to the cassino...
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Post by Jaeven » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:14 am

squarehead93 wrote:@Saxman: I was referring to the original Battlefront 2 from 2005. As far as I'm concerned, the EA Battlefront games don't exist. :D

I'm surprised there hasn't been talk of a new Star Wars space sim with the resurgence or simulator games.

@Jaeven: the space battles definitely played fast and loose with Star Wars. Victory star destroyers as frigates and regular TIE fighters with (unlimited) proton torpedoes bugged me. Plus, we lost fighter cover for every map except Hoth IIRC. The Bespin platforms and Tatooine Dune Sea levels from the first game were two of my favorites because of the ships.
The very first Battlefront was an absolute joy. Gameplay was balanced, and all classes and vehicles were true to their movie/EU counterparts. Sadly they absolutely jumped the gun in Battlefront 2, not only breaking canon at almost every point, but also dumping the game itself down.
Marcos_Edson wrote:Just came back from the theater, had no option but to see it dubbed, they used the Portuguese word for "warp" when talking about the ships in hyperspace, please tell me that's not what they say it in English...
I'm not sure yet how to feel about, in the end some stuff simply seemed unnecessary to begin with, like Poe"s mutiny and the mission to the cassino...
No, they didn't say that. It was either hyperspace or light speed, but nothing about warp.

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Post by Marcos_Edson » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:31 am

Jaeven wrote:No, they didn't say that. It was either hyperspace or light speed, but nothing about warp.
Thank the gods... It was a painful reminder for me not going to see dubbed Star Wars ever again...
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