Nebulon-B Hangar

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Re: Nebulon-B Hangar

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:46 pm

Ingenious DTM, absolutely ingenuous. Can't wait for the updated opt :D

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Epsilon Eridani
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Post by Epsilon Eridani » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:55 pm

Inserting the option in the XWAU craft pack / DSUCP installer to have the hangarless Nebulon B or the new Nebulon B will please both the Armada players and the Canon likers.

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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:24 am

I like it, DTM. Just, what do other sources say about what's supposed to be in that interior space?
The Saxman wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:42 pm
Mysteries of the Sith had a level set aboard a Corvette...with a hangar. Which is even MORE ridiculous.
In Wraith Squadron, the wraiths capture a CR90 that had a hangar carved into the forward structure just below the bridge, carrying 4 tie fighters on racks on the back wall. The wraiths reconfigure the racks to hold nine x-wings, in three rows of three, and then somehow find space for four more x-wings in another cargo bay... somewhere. ("More than a squadron's worth, through superior engineering," the engineer quipped, if memory serves.) And the ties? They mounted them on exterior racks in place of the escape pods. The ship was basically a CR90 ugly.

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Post by Phoenix Leader » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:03 am

There is a mission in X-Wing campaign, the equivalent of 1b16m5xwc in X-Wing conversion 4.0, where 3 TIE Bombers launch from a CR90 corvette.
Checked using AlliED: 3 waves of 1 TIE Bomber Alpha launch from CRV Trigger 3 and 3 waves of 1 TIE Bomber Beta launch from CRV Trigger 7.

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Epsilon Eridani
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Post by Epsilon Eridani » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:17 am

The TIE Bombers get launched 1 at a time, therefore the solution applied to the corvette hangar should be similar to that posted by DTM:
DTM wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:22 pm

Image

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Post by Phoenix Leader » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:21 am

All the TIE Bombers are armed with proton torpedoes in that mission. There must be space inside the hangar enough to allow warhead loading operations.

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Post by DTM » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:39 pm

CR90 has a small inside hangar. We may see it in the ROTS, when Kenoby lands on Organa's ship.
A standard CR90 has the possibility to carrie up to 3 TIEs: one in the interior hangar and 2 docked at the lateral hatches. Empire could have added to the CR90 other external docks, as they did with the Gozanti.

There are also the mod corvettes.
Get a look at the CR90 FarStar
They used to mod the corvettes to add a larger hangar.

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Post by Jaeven » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:26 pm

The Farstar is such a cool ship. Tremendously underrated.

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Post by The Saxman » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:26 pm

Gonna give you points for creativity, I didn't consider such a radical alteration of the external spaceframe.

The question is: What are you gutting out of it to actually make it fit? Because this requires much more space than what I came up with.

Keep in mind you still need fuel bunkers, ordinance magazines, workshops, and storage for spare parts and other heavy equipment, not to mention crew quarters for the pilots, ground crew for servicing the craft, (in the US Navy that's about 6-10 people PER FIGHTER) and flight operations (the guys in the tower or actually on deck charged with spotting and directing launch).

You also still need to devote sufficient space for the crew and stores required for the ship's ordinary, non-flight operations (at least according to the old SWTJ, your flight deck is where Officer's Row is located). Also, your flight deck is cutting off access to many of the ship's lower modules, including the bridge (second module below your hangar) so you need to allow access for lift shafts down to that section, which is going to cut into the flight deck and may present a hazard for operations.

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Post by The Saxman » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:33 pm

keiranhalcyon7 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:24 am
I like it, DTM. Just, what do other sources say about what's supposed to be in that interior space?
The Saxman wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:42 pm
Mysteries of the Sith had a level set aboard a Corvette...with a hangar. Which is even MORE ridiculous.
In Wraith Squadron, the wraiths capture a CR90 that had a hangar carved into the forward structure just below the bridge, carrying 4 tie fighters on racks on the back wall. The wraiths reconfigure the racks to hold nine x-wings, in three rows of three, and then somehow find space for four more x-wings in another cargo bay... somewhere. ("More than a squadron's worth, through superior engineering," the engineer quipped, if memory serves.) And the ties? They mounted them on exterior racks in place of the escape pods. The ship was basically a CR90 ugly.
You do realize this would require enlarging the hammerhead of a CR90 on the order of THREE TIMES ITS NORMAL SIZE to be possible, right? And Night Caller was said to be externally indistinguishable from a standard CR90 other than a few minor modifications (IE a tractor beam in place of one turbolaser turret).

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Post by DTM » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:10 pm

Speaking about the Nebulo B: if you compare it's dimension to the dimensions of a US WW2 escort carrier, you may understand that in the Nebby there is enough space to have 12 starfighters.
Yes, the flight deck cuts the ship, but there is enough space for two turbolifts on the sides, protected by the vertical armor that joins all modules.

Yesterday I belived that the Nebby could not host more than three starfighters without heavy modifications. Now, after my work on the model, I'm sure that it can host 12 starfighters without large modifications.

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Post by Phoenix Leader » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:23 pm

And what about the Bulk Cruiser? Is it suitable to carry fighters? In Battle 3, Mission 2: Supply Rebels with Warheads (1b3m2fb) the Black Sun Bulk Cruiser XTS-673 launches a total of 18 Supa fighters.
The Bulk Cruiser, later renamed Neutron Star-class bulk cruiser, is still the original opt, with a hangar that can hardly stock more than 12 fighters.

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Post by Epsilon Eridani » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:47 pm

According to the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook (Second Edition) there is a carrier conversion for the Neutron Star-class bulk cruiser which can carry up to 36 fighters.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Neutron_ ... conversion

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Post by Phoenix Leader » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:52 pm

In Star Wars Rebellion, which is a later source, the Bulk Cruiser had no fighter capacity, and there was no mention of a carrier conversion.

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Post by Jaeven » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:08 am

As far as I understand, Bulk Cruisers were often modified to fit whatever purpose the Alliance needed at the time. If they needed additional carriers, they added fighter bays. If they needed them as extra muscle, they added turbolasers. If they were needed as support ships, the Rebels equipped them with repair bays.

Also, if you're referring to the game Rebellion, I'd be cautious there. Some of its content is very questionable canon wise. And considering WEG is pretty much the grandad of the EU, and the fact Bulk Cruiser carriers showed up in the Thrawn trilogy, we can assume they existed.

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Post by The Saxman » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:36 am

DTM wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:10 pm
Speaking about the Nebulo B: if you compare it's dimension to the dimensions of a US WW2 escort carrier, you may understand that in the Nebby there is enough space to have 12 starfighters.
Yes, the flight deck cuts the ship, but there is enough space for two turbolifts on the sides, protected by the vertical armor that joins all modules.

Yesterday I belived that the Nebby could not host more than three starfighters without heavy modifications. Now, after my work on the model, I'm sure that it can host 12 starfighters without large modifications.
The problem with the Nebulon B isn't size, it's the configuration. You also didn't answer any of my remaining questions:

First, what are you doing with Officer's Country? Your flight deck is occupying that part of the hull.

Where are the fuel bunkers and ordinance magazines? You need SOMEWHERE to store fuel for the fighters, and ordinance for the warhead launchers.

Where are you bunking your pilots, (all officer ranks; remember, you wiped out the officers' quarters and put the flight deck in their place) the ground crew, and flight operations personnel? I would say including pilots, you need to assume a MINIMUM of 100 crew, including the pilots, ground crew, and flight ops.

Where are the associated machine shops, and the storage bays for tools, heavy equipment, and spare parts?

And of course, what are you doing with all the stuff you gutted out to make room? It can be safely assumed that there's not any wasted space on a ship like this. If it exists, it's there for a reason, and removing it is going to be detrimental to the operation of the ship. Which means you need to move all that stuff somewhere else.

Also, are you saying the lifts are running OUTSIDE the hull but inside the armor plates? There's not sufficient room for that (the plates appear to be flush to the edge of the modules).

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Post by Bman » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 am

Great idea DTM, very nice. I guess the medical frigate could stay as cannon but the heavily armed Neb-B's could take on your proposed design, little bigger width wise. B/t/w, I have copy of Gank's SWG model with superior textures and fully functional working turrets. Do you want a copy?
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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:23 am

The Saxman wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:33 pm
You do realize this would require enlarging the hammerhead of a CR90 on the order of THREE TIMES ITS NORMAL SIZE to be possible, right? And Night Caller was said to be externally indistinguishable from a standard CR90 other than a few minor modifications (IE a tractor beam in place of one turbolaser turret).
Well, I brought it up as an example of the 'ridiculous' category. But after some cursory measurements I think the fighters could be made to fit, albeit with minimal clearance, so it's more of an example of how the EU doesn't really concern itself with fighter support requirements.

I mean, if a fighter should require 6-10 ground support personnel, how much ground support should the fastest ship in the galaxy require? But it's established that Han and Chewy handle her all by themselves (usually - layover in Cloud City notwithstanding). Ships in Star Wars are treated more like DIY hot rods than aircraft.

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Post by Phoenix Leader » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:59 am

Despite having many futuristic technologies (a long time ago…) such as deflector shields and tractor beams, Starships in Star Wars require large crew to operate, so it’s reasonable to assume they also require more ground support personnel than what is actually available.

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Post by DTM » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:13 pm

@ BMAN:
Thank you. Please, send your Nebulon B version to my mail adress. :)

@ The Saxman:
:D
I am sure that on board the Nebby we can also find the necessary space for a Wookiee-sized toilet ... with its waste disposal system :toilet: It is a great problem to be able to meet the needs of all the species in the Galaxy!
Honestly, I can not tell you where all the functions of the ship are, because the Nebby is an imaginary ship (Oops, I said it out loud? Sorry!)
Only thing I can do is a comparison with a real ship. Below a comparison between the Nebby and a WW2 escort carrier.

Starships in Star Wars require large crew to operate. WWII ships are a good comparison.

Image

It sounds like science fiction, but the Sangamon class carrier really had a crew of 1,000 people, 31 airplanes, including 12 fighters and 19 bombers and torpedoes.
Do you really believe that Nebby does not have space for handling 12 starfighters?
The flying deck is separated from the main hangar, and could be an optional module, whose only function is to launch several starfighters simultaneously.

As for the two side turbolift: it is an obvious choice, the only one that allows to reach all the modules, even if one is damaged or unhooked. There is enough room between the side armor and the modules for a transparent-steel turbolift tube.

EDIT:
Turbolift does not need for a tube. It only needs a rail on the internal face of the armor. The lift is a capsule, that docks at the hatch of the modules.

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Post by ual002 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:23 pm

I just wanted to chime in and mention how much joy ya'lls extra level nerd is bringing me right now. I'm home.
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Post by Drinkinmiester » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:42 pm

The limited hangar space could just mean that it was limited in its flight operations tempo more than in how many craft it could one-time launch. Which might make sense since its just originally supposed to be an escort ship following transports to and from safe ports- as opposed to other 'Fleet" frigate type ships like the Class-II and Enforcer which could be beefier because they have longer endurance more independent operations in-mind in their size and design

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Post by Driftwood » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:22 pm

Don't forget that turbo-lifts can also move laterally, not just up/down, so if some hinky angles due to vertical access being semi-obstructed and are needed to reach certain points of the ship this is technically speaking, viable due to in universe function.

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Post by Marcos_Edson » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:55 am

Interesting idea. :)
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Post by Will T » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:06 pm

The Saxman wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:36 am
And of course, what are you doing with all the stuff you gutted out to make room? It can be safely assumed that there's not any wasted space on a ship like this. If it exists, it's there for a reason, and removing it is going to be detrimental to the operation of the ship. Which means you need to move all that stuff somewhere else.
Sax, I don't want to discourage you from doing what you do but I think you're bordering getting a little over technical for a fictional ship in a science fantasy setting?

I mean, the most famous example of this ship we have is the Redemption, a ship that was reconfigured as a medical frigate.

Don't all of you questions apply equally to the medical frigate? If there is no wasted space on the escort frigate, then what did they rip out to make room for hospital wards, surgical bays, bacta tanks, medical supply storage, doctors' stations, drug dispensaries and rehabilitation facilities?

Where did they quarter all the medical personnel? All the specialised maintenance crew who would need to work on the medical equipment and droids?

I really doubt the Lucasfilm thought about any of that when designing the model, or that the RPG writers considered it at all when re-concepting the ship as having originally been a combat ship.

It just seems to me that if a combat escort frigate can be reconfigured to serve as a fully functional hospital ship, the same logic can be used to justify whatever support requirements a squadron of starfighters need, now that we can see there is space available to house the fighters without taking up the entire internal volume.

There's also no reason to assume the starfighters couldn't be ordinarily housed on a massive fleet support carrier ship and transferred to less long term carriage on a smaller ship on a per mission basis. Do they really need full maintenance crews if all they need is to be prepped for the mission and recovered afterwards? Do they really need ordnance storage if they can be loaded elsewhere before the mission?

Personally, the idea of locating a launch bay there seems like too big of a structural weakness, but that's largely a meaningless objection in a fantasy universe of made up plot strength materials and magic science fields that can control gravity or keep air in.
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