New Pressue Tank, I hope.

[Oldcode]

Hey everybody,

Since the project is coming back to life of sorts, I thought I'd try to help out in a small (very small) way.

Here's a meager attempt to do one of the simpler objects in the game. This is the Pressure Tank object, used in various missions First, does anybody have any suggestions for putting more detail into this thing?

Second, I made this in Lightwave, saved it as an OBJ and brought it into Optech. Looks like Optech does not like the Lightwave version of OBJ. That's not surprising, there has been an issue with the OBJ exporter in Lightwave modeler for a while and other programs don't like it either.

I think I read somewhere that Optech only likes D-X-F from Rhino. Is that true? If yes, can I send this to somebody who has Rhino to convert it?

Here's a wire frame picture and a quick render I did in Lightwave of the new model with the old textures.

Thanks in advance,

[Darksaber]

Can you explain what optech is doing to the obj file a little more?

I only ask as usually you have to reapply the textures, the obj file should have kept the texture co-ordinates if you applied them in lightwave and exported to obj.

Saving the model to dxf isn't going to benefit you as the texture co-ordinate are lost, you would have to start from scratch texturing the craft in optech.

As for detail, I think it's pretty much done, even in our universe propane tanks are pretty basic, I just googled Propane Tanks and that's what It came up with.

As for the textures, the original textures personally I don't like them, I just googled old propane tanks I like the old rusty tanks but you also have to think, in space I doubt there would be any rush, dirt probably, wear and tear and shading.

[Oldcode]

Hey Darksaber,

Here's the errors I'm getting with the model when I import it into Optech as an OBJ. I was not concerned about bringing the textures in with the OBJ, for I agree, the old textures are terrible. I just put them in while in Lightwave more out of curiosity than anything else (and its disgustingly easy to apply textures in Lightwave than it is in Optech). We'll definitely have to have decent textures to get this thing good enough to be part of the project.

As you can see from the screen shots, some of the polygons are not showing up. I've been trying to read up on Optech, but I'm very new at this and I have no idea what the problem may be.

Do you know of a tutorial that takes you through the Opting process step by step? I've checked your page, and am going over the Opt Tech page on MTD...

http://www.mtdindustries.com/xwa/Tutorial_OpTech.htm

But so far its not very clear. I'll keep fiddling with it. If I can get this simple Opt to work, maybe I'll try again for Dinaries Casino!

[Darksaber]

Looks like some of you faces are back to front, I'm not familiar with lightwave, but is there an option in it to flip a face?
And can you preview the model as a render, and is there also an option to disable rendering backfaces, if you can uncheck render backfaces, it will allow you to see which faces you have to flip as the model should look insideout, with the flipped face pointing towards you.

Sorry I know how to fix it, but I'm not very good at explaining, I can do it easy in Rhino, I should be able to import lightwave files *.lwo, or 3ds, obj, but fixing it might loose the texture co-ordinated and you might have to reapply in lightwave. I'll PM you my email

[Gank]

Theres issues with obj exporters in nearly all software. Need to watch your y axis as well.It looks like the problems are where you intersected meshes and cut holes where the long cylinders and top coneecter things are. You dont actually need to do that in XWA, you can just leave the underlying spheres and hemisperes as they are created and plonk the other meshes on top, making sure theres no holes. basically cut the outside mesh and not the one its on top of. Hope thats clear? It'll also lower your vertex count, you might have issuses there on the 4 outside cylinders

[Oldcode]

Hey everybody,

Thanks to Darksaber's assistance, I've got the model into OPT tech can even bring it into the game. Had lots of fun blowing some up in skirmish mode.

Now I'm trying to come up with some decent textures so it will look good enough for the project, which is not easy because I suck at art, drawing, and even Photoshop. For the round end of the tanks, here's what I've come up with so far. Any suggestions are more than welcome. I've heard that XWA can only handle certain numbers of colors. The funny thing is, when I save the image as BMP from MS Paint, it works, but looks bad, but if I save it to BMP from Photoshop, it looks good but does not work in game.

Tex00005.jpg

Tank Side.jpg

[Gank]

not a bad start but it lacks and depth or definition. Add shadows, dirt, grime etc. Best way to add realistic shadows is to bake the model with ambient occlusion, but if you're texturing in optech forget about that. It simple enough to do in photoshop with layers and masks and playing around with the settings. Like wise dirt, wear and grime. Get some real world textures and apply them to different areas with layers and masks . Play around with the blend modes and opacity till you get something that looks good. Paint is noramlly not uniform, it chips and wears, especially around edges so hit those with different shape and hardness eraser tools. look at real world examples and try to reproduce it. Takes a lot of experimentation to do textures but you'r off to a good start. Good tutorial here:
http://www.3dtotal.com/index_tutorial_d ... QSE0PmVLww

In photoshop under the image menu change the mode to indexed before you save as bmp. Limit is 256 colors which can lead to mismatching textures if you arent careful

[Oldcode]

Hey Gank,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, this is a very early version of the texture and I'm just trying to get the feel of things. I've tried off and on since 2000 to make my own ops and get them working in the game. This is the first time I've gotten an opt in the game and it didn't crash, so One Miracle at a Time as they say. I'm not very good with drawing at all, even on a computer, but I'll try the tutorial you gave and a few others to see what I can come up with. I definitely want to put in rust, corrosion, shadows and other enhancements, but I've got another problem first.

Thanks for letting me know about changing the mode. I tried it, but as you can see from the picture below, its not working as it should. There are several options in the Index controls for Palette, Dithering, and Force. I tried a number of combinations, but I only get this strange purple shading and I can't seem to get rid of it.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

[Gank]

did you try just exporting as 8bit? Re optech, just dont use it, use jeremyFA's tool instead, with a little experimentation you'll be able to get your obj in complete with textures. Also have more control over smoothing. Dont touch dxf, formats completely unsuitable for game models. & dont worry about sucking at art, its not really neccessary to be able to draw to create textures, just google for tutorials, pick up some techniques and tricks and play around with photoshop

[Darksaber]

I've been trying to save an image to 8bit 256 color in photoshop CS6, I can't figure out a way to do it, and don't think there is a way, I've tried googling it, but get the same result, people can't seem to do it, 24 bit or 16 bit are fine when saving, but the 8bit option is greyed out.

Anyhow I've been using Paint Shop Pro for years to convert to 256 colors, try and get hold of a copy of that.

0MS Paint is far too basic for anything like this, you would have thought over the years Microsoft would have updated it by now.

Also people have been using Dxf for years to model XWA craft, 15 years ago or more, people had to use what they could get there hands on to build craft meaning the only thing about at that time was Rhinoceros. Unless you paid stupid money to buy 3d Max or what ever. So people leant how to use Rhino to build models but it didn't allow you to texture the model, and save in that format. Since back then we only had Ace_DXF to build craft the ONLY format was dxf, until Optech arrived on the seen which allows you to import OBJ files, which as you know contain the texture co-ordinates, making it easier to textures craft. by this time those people who used Rhino couldn't use anything else, so it's the only thing that know.

Gank you made models for freespace and homeworld right? Yes, Homeworld and Freespace came out around the same time as XWA (but you have to remember the XWA game engine is around 20 years old, XWA still used the same craft format), whereas Homeworld and Freespace used a totally different format for craft, then Homeworld 2 was released in 2003 probably the modelling format changed again, allowing you to model and apply textures differently than XWA. Freespace is Open source allowing it's game engine to evolve. But XWA is stuck in a 1995/6 format so we are limited to what we can use i.e DXF, and yes you have to texture the craft in optech, but that adds to the skill of opting. Homeworld and Freespace use a totally different format so larger textures can be used, probably 1024x1024 I don't know?

But the size of the texture enables you to UV map an object easier IMO, we are limited with XWA, where the largest texture you can use is 256x256 which doesn't lend itself too well to UV mapping, Saxman tried it with his E-Wing model, personally I don't think it works, with all respects to Saxman, he probably made the textures of a higher res such as 1024x1024, but had to reduce the size to 256x256 for XWA.

So all I'm saying is don't tell someone to not touch DXF when it's basically what we were limited to using, like I said most of the models on here where made with Rhinoceros which where saved as DXF textured in Ace_Dxf or later Optech! Personally I don't think they look too bad for a format that is totally unsuitable for game models!

[Gank]

Hey Ds, yeah i made models for freespace and homeworld, which you graciously converted (and fixed my errors, in fact i think you had to completely rebuild them) when i couldnt resolve shading problems when using the 3ds importer. Think that was related to rhino 2.0 shifting vertexes around.

My comments on dxf were based on the present, we arent limited to it anymore, i've imported models textured as obj using jeremys editor, and its a hell of a lot easier. Oldcode has lightwave, and can texture in that and convert to opt using jeremys tool. its a different process than with optech but for him and the tools hes using it'd be the easiest. Theres no need for him to remap it in optech when he can use jeremys editor. In that context i think its fair to say dont use it.

I understand where, you're coming from, and i agree, you made some damn good looking models, and a lot of them, through a process that wasnt the easiest. You converted my ships when i couldnt. So hearing someone say dont use dxf when you've been doing good work with it for year ticks you off, but fact is its not the best format. It removes texture co-ordinates like you pointed out yourself, and it also unwelds vertices. Thats important now that we know the vertex limit is what causes triangulation, optech does weld some but we've no control over it, using obj and jeremys tool we do. And those dxfs took some work in optech, rotating meshes and mapping in a way that could have been done easier elsewhere had the tools been available.

I know the story with dxf as well as you, i've been around for a long time too, first game i modded was xwing with a hex editor to turn those tie bombers into fighters on that mission to save the frigate, the korolev? I was around when the first custom ships got put into xvt, think the program back then was protocad? think came free on a pc magazine floppy disk. My first attempts at modelling were in that and iirc the dxf formats a hangover from this. And later i used the free version of rhino 2, with 25 saves ( never understood why some people were willing to crack the exe to remove the saves limitation but not pirate better software, legally the same thing. And i know some people bought it). But yeah, we were limited to the tools we had at the time, and that turned people like myself to other games that were easier to work with. (and lower quality standards). And put off modders from those games from trying to get their ships into xwa.

But that was then, this is now, we have free modelling programs like blender and wings that are better for polygon mesh creation than rhino was (v5 is actually pretty decent though), free uv mapping software thats faster and easier than optech, theres even a student version of 3dmax thats free to use for non-profit purposes.

So dont get me wrong, when i say dont use dxf. The fact that you guys produced so many good models with the format and tools is a credit to you, not the opposite. No other mod did as good even with better tools, Both teams I was on came to you and asked to use your ships, you never asked for ours, the few of mine that made it into xwau I came to you with. But its not necessary any more to use dxf or optech, theres easier ways of doing things.

far as homeworld was concerned we actually had lower limits than xwa iirc, but the ships were seen at a much greater distance, so it wasnt a big problem. Texturewise it was the same as xwa, 256^ 8bit, but much less of them. Freespace made heavy use of tiled textures, and while I think it did support larger maps it was in smaller numbers, pretty sure Karma had to merge some of yours to get them ingame. Thats what 12 years ago so i might be wrong but far as i remember with mine the homeworld models were worse than xwa, and the freespace were the same, better textures when the source code was released and limits raised. We were actually in a similar situation there, limited to a format cos the tools were based on a free modelling program, cob think it was, but it supported uv mapping. But that mod died due to lack of modellers. HW2 i never touched, evillejedi was doing the sw mod for that and far as i remember from what he said he'd use any ships but the team was him. Anyways its not correct to say we had better engines to work with, we just had an easier process to get things in game. Xwa only supported 256^ textures, but 100(?) of them, thats equivalent to 1 4096^ and 2 2048^ textures which is on a par with todays games. Poly limit was what, 10k? homeworld remastered devs, which was released 3 weeks ago, said thats the most any of their ships have.

Anywas tl;dr: saying dont use dxf isnt a reflection on you or your work, you did outstanding work with the tools you had to work with, but with jeremys editor theres easier ways to do things.

[Oldcode]

Hey Guys,

Well, after a few experiments, and a lot of reading , I downloaded Paint Shop Pro and tried to apply the textures to the model in Optech. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but the purple problem persists and I have no idea why. I looked and didn't see anything like the MODE options that Photoshop has, so I'm not sure where else to look. DS, is there a certain way you save your texture files to BMP in PSP?

So, I brought the model into XWA Opt Editor and managed to get the textures on the model and have them look Okay in the game. Had to fiddle with the scale and am having trouble with tools you use to position and orient the textures on a particular mesh, but I'll keep fiddling with it. It's just a case of learning a new piece of software all over again. I've been looking at the treads by JeremyaFr. There's a lot to go through and I don't even know if I have his latest version of the software.

Is there any kind of user's manual for this thing?

Anyway, now I'll try to make some good textures. I'll post the results here. If you like them DS, you're more than welcome to add the tank to the project.

Cheers!

[Darksaber]

I must admit Gank you did cheese me off a little , but there again you make a good point, and perhaps I'm stuck in the stone age. I find change hard, I've tried other modelling app, but just can't get to grips with them, UV mapping I'm not sure where to start, give me top, bottom, left, right, back and front any day

Believe it or not I'm still using Rhinoceros 1.1 to build stuff, though I don't build much these day, more tinkering than anything Optech has it's floors but I manage.

Anyhow I won't go on a long rant

Ok then Oldcode, saving a BMP in PSP

you've made your texture in Photoshop, simply save it as a Jpeg or better a PNG file.

1. Open the JPEG/PNG file in PSP, to convert it to and BMP first you have to convert the image to 256 colors,
2. Click Image / Decrease Colour Depth / 256 Color palette
3. A preview screen will appear
4. The settings you need to click are (once selected they will stay the same) Optimized Octree, Error Diffusion and tick Reduce color bleeding,
5. Click ok.
6. To save click File / Save as / select BMP Windows or OS/2 Bitmap *.bmp from the save as type dropdown box.
7. Before you actually save the file just check Options button, the option should be set as Format: Windows and Encoding: RGB click ok.
8. Save the file.

Now repeat 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8.

[Oldcode]

Hey DS,

Thanks again for all your help. That worked like a charm! I guess there is just something about the way Photoshop saves in 256 colors that the game, and all the OpenGL based opt viewers/editors, does not like. That's the nice thing about the new XWA Opt Editor, is it has that button that will convert your images to 256/8 bit for you.

Now its on to trying to make some decent textures. Will me luck, I'll need it.

[Darksaber]

That's the nice thing about the new XWA Opt Editor, is it has that button that will convert your images to 256/8 bit for you.

I wouldn't touch that! that button only if you have converted the opt textures to 32bit, you then click the convert opt textures to 8bit to change them back.

Since your textures are already 8bit, I would touch the button. Also it you start messing with those buttons you might run into other problems, since it doesn't just convert the current opt you have open but all the opts in the flightmodels folder. With all due respect to Jeremy, if you convert your opt to 32bit, you then have to patch the exe, and if you distribute the opt in 32bit it won't run and will crash the game unless the person playing has there exe patch to 32bit. Also if you change to 32bit then convert back to 8bit it doesn't restore the file as they where previously, but changes them slightly, and the textures might not be left at 100% of what they previously was. So my advice would be just to stay away from that for the moment.

As for the textures good start, but do you see the grain of the grey on the domes, as it bends around the dome the grain is horizontal, but the grain on the centre cylinder looks like it's running vertical, try to have the grain running horizontally also, or alternatively try putting a darker line along the edge of the cylinder texture to disguise this

The black lines you have on the dome running to the edge could join the line you could have running around each edge or the cylinder

[Gank]

no worries ds, getting long in the tooth mayself and learning new stuff isnt as fun as it used to be. If you can try rhino 5 give it a shot, lot of the stuff you could only do with nurbs can now be done with meshes, stuff that was a pain to do in the old versions is real easy now. Might get you back interested. Lots of other stuff out there that wasnt around back then, some excellent reference for the studio models for example. Bwing looks a bit inaccurate these days

Agree with you on the textures, 256 colors isnt a lot and you can get left with mismatching textures, better off doing it a way where you've more control

[Oldcode]

Thanks for the warning DS. I'll stick with Optech for now. I've learned a lot about it in the last couple of weeks and it seems to be the most stable. Also, when I get home, I'm going to try downloading Gimp. If it can convert BMPs to 256 colors properly, then I'll use that instead of PSP. Since I already have Photoshop, I don't want to spend any more money just to get one feature that Photoshop should have anyway.

I've got some evil idea on how to make the textures on the side of the tank better. I'll try to post some images tonight.

Cheers!

[Darksaber]

Don't get me wrong I'm not warning you NOT to use XwaOptEditor, I'm just saying just be careful not to click the convert opt textures buttons.

The rest of the editor is fine, I haven't used it to totally edit or make opts, just to tweak opts, it much easier than importing the opt to Optech fixing what you have to then saving as opt and then you have to illuminated everything again, all you have to do with XwaOptEditor is open opt fix the problem and save.

I think you have much more control saving as a 256 color bmp in PSP than you do in Gimp, I've just tried it, and PSP is much more user friendly.

[Oldcode]

Hey DS,

Roger that. No reason we can't use both.

Here's the latest texture job. Using your idea of the line, I tried (on a whim mostly) using the same texture on all sides. Even though it does get stretched, since the lines line up, it looks a lot better than I expected.

What do you think?

[Bman]

That looks a lot better Oldcode. Curious, have you tried using a beveling tool to add "depth" to the lines and make them appear as blades or plates cascading above the main tank ? Keep up the effort.

Interesting, i didn't think the new XWAOptEditor tool was fully functional yet. I've experimented with it on both XP Pro and Win8.1 64-bit and the only thing I"ve been able to edit was the replacing of textures or converting them from 8-bit to 32-bit like DS was saying, but not needed at this point. But as far as stitching textures onto a model.... nothing is working or editable when I use it. More like a read-only state with everything else.... vertex coordinates editing and selecting faces etc. There's no buttons to push or select. Just tabs. Maybe I'm missing something from latest .net Framework package ? Anyone else having problems ?

[Gank]

XWAOptEditor doesnt allow you to place textures but why does that make in non functional? You can import a fully textured model and export it to opt and it works ingame. If you cant use the student version of 3dmax, blender, milkshape, wings3d or something else to apply textures, use optech. No sense in wasting jeremyAFrs time building a uv mapping system when theres no real need for it and hes doing excellent work on other aspects of the game.

best way to add depth is to bake ambient occlusion maps and apply them as layers over your textures. This will only work if theres actual geometry there to create shadows, but easier to create some extra meshes than texture. Use your high detail mesh to create the textures for the low one. Gives nice uniform shadowing throughout. Easy to do with free tools and not difficult to set up
Heres a quick example:
High poly mesh

-high.JPG

Low poly mesh with basic texture

-low.JPG

Low poly mesh with high poly shadows (ambient occlusion) baked and added to texture file

-low-ao.JPG

[Gank]

what the texture looks like before, note this was just a quick pass on an unfinished untextured model so nots of crap in the final result, but the process isnt difficult and set up properly can make textures a lot more realistic

noao.JPG

after

ao.JPG

[Oldcode]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've not figured out how to do everything in the XWA Opt Editor, but one thing I do like is the way you can rescale opts. I find it much easier than in Opt Tech. I'll probably be using both for a while.

Here's my latest paint job. I think we're getting closer. I used a bunch of Nernies and Greeblys from Foundation3d.com, rendered them out and use that as the base of my textures. I think I'll try putting on some weathering and rust next.

Hope you like it.

Cheers!

[Driftwood]

Looks like you're getting there!

[Oldcode]

Thanks Corrann,

I'm working on weathering the textures now, seeing how nice I can get them. A friend of mine who's much better at photoshop than I am is helping.

We'll see.