New visuals - HUD - explosions - hyperspace - beta

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Re: New visuals - HUD - explosions - hyperspace - beta

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keiranhalcyon7
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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:03 am

I think it could be done in two parts - a hook to alter the targeting camera angle and zoom, and something in ddraw to implement the shader.

The shader XWVM uses is meant specifically to evoke the look of the Executor's scan of the Tydirium, which appears to be what x-wing was going for with the "information" cmd mode. Recoloring the result in red was deemed good enough for the imperial scope.

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Post by korekwerner » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:20 am

From what I see, the easiest way is to take a yellow rectangle from the front sensor and rewrite its position in place of the bottom center screen for the aiming computer. Target highlighting on the bottom screen can be obtained by rewriting the crosshair value (dim / highlighted). Changing to torpedoes / rockets also changes the appearance of the center of the lower screen's interior.
I don't know if it's possible, but I think so.

sorry for my English.

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Driftwood

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Post by Driftwood » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:18 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it also possible to have the current projected HUD elements AND have them mirrored in the cockpit displays? I would figure having both functions simultaneously would be ideal since you could just manually toggle off the projected HUD retical if it wasn't wanted.

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Post by blue_max » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:28 pm

@korekwerner: I'm probably going to need some pictures to follow you here; but it looks like you're suggesting that we can use the left radar/forward sensor for the aiming computer? The problem with that is that the from the sensor image will look pixelated when stretched to fit the targeting computer area. Also, from what I understand, the targeted object appears centered when the right amount of lead is applied, so that's another thing that probably wouldn't work and that's why keiranhalcyon7 is suggesting that we use another camera with a new hook.

@Driftwood: Yes, it's possible to have HUD elements on the screen and in the cockpit at the same time.

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Post by korekwerner » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:59 pm

Here is sample what I thinking about.
link - https://youtu.be/sfX7MAUOeMQ
little mess but could work.

KW

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Post by The Saxman » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:12 pm

Although on the X-wing that display would be at the bottom of the console. ;-)

Ah, I didn't notice at first you also used the sensor window for this.

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Post by korekwerner » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:16 pm

@The Saxman that's right, only in the game we still have this big screen with a 3d model and additional information (shields, hull, systems, distance). If there is an option to reduce this 3d model size on this large screen, then we can place the targeting computer below the 3d screen :-)

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Post by blue_max » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:43 pm

korekwerner wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:59 pm
Here is sample what I thinking about.
link - https://youtu.be/sfX7MAUOeMQ
little mess but could work.
Yes, that could work. It's not exactly the same; but it's close enough :)

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Post by Trevor » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:19 pm

korekwerne, I don't think that implementation is particularly useful as it is just a duplication of the forward sensor with a static crosshair on it - though I also understand its a mock-up.

To be more useful it would;
need to isolate the target from the "other" sensor data
apply correct lead.

Also, to be even more useful and fulfill its original role, would it not share the main screen rather than be a separate small entity?
If the target scope was that small, its no benefit to looking through your HUD reticule - BUT, as a zoomed in "scope" then yes, that would be of benefit and obviously requires more screenspace.

Trev

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Post by korekwerner » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:22 pm

What I have prepared is just a small example of what can be done with the things we have. This is not exactly what I am thinking about.
Reducing the 3D object in the main target preview window will allow you to enlarge the additional element, i.e. the new targeting computer. To do this, we need a new hook to manage the size of the object in the main target preview window.
I hope that thanks to the work of Jeremyfr and Blue_max we will be able to do much more new things in the cockpit.

All the best in the New Year!
sorry for English.
KW

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Post by The Saxman » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:48 pm

Trevor wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:19 pm
Also, to be even more useful and fulfill its original role, would it not share the main screen rather than be a separate small entity?
If the target scope was that small, its no benefit to looking through your HUD reticule - BUT, as a zoomed in "scope" then yes, that would be of benefit and obviously requires more screenspace.
This was what my thoughts on the implementation would be within the game; as a replacement or alternate mode for the current "main" display.

However on the ACTUAL X-wing cockpit, the scope is indeed smaller than the primary displays. The problem is that the X-wing's cockpit has been inconsistent from ANH to ROTJ, and even within ANH there were actually three different console layouts: One was part of the full-scale X-wing mockup, and differs significantly from the miniature one actually used for front-facing cockpit shots during battle (a third cockpit mockup without the console was used for pilot-facing shots). The hero and pyro miniatures had a third, radically different cockpit design (along with pilots wearing full-face masks!) completely unrelated to the other two because they were designed before the larger shooting cockpit and full-scale markup. The old AMT/ERTL kits used that cockpit.

The most recent Battlefront has a pretty accurate reproduction of the second (in-cockpit) X-wing panels from the original film:

Image

There's actually nothing on the panel below the two display monitors shown here. The targeting scope is actually present on the full-scale mockup. However there's few really good shots of that panel layout, although this model is based on it:
Cockpit.png
You can see the scope at the bottom, offset slightly to the right. It's significantly smaller than the primary display. However it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into the the layout from above, since there's literally nothing on the panel below the two displays.

Empire and Jedi's cockpits changed even further, though I'm not finding any images right now.

Image

This is sort of a hybrid of all of the cockpit layouts; it has the primary display from the miniature shooting model, the switch cluster (moved to the right side, rather than being at the top left) and targeting scope from the original full-scale mockup, but the droid translator panel from ESB/Jedi.
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Post by Trevor » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:31 pm

Agreed that the X-Wing cockpit has extreme lack of continuity and varies from shot-to-shot and film-to-film.

There are some common elements, like the knob on the left, the tube on the right and for those that have screens, 2 tall screens in the middle.

Comparing XW93 I definatly see why they put the laser power at the top in place of the row of buttons

RS-RL had shield power in the "tube", but given the RS games only had a top-down radar they only had 1 image in the center screen.

What do you think the purpose of that tube on the right is? It cannot be optics because its to impractical for that (I know in reality the XW cockpit is just greebles without real thought at the time)

Trev

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Post by The Saxman » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:16 pm

Well, you could argue that the changes between ANH, ESB, and ROTJ are due to avionics upgrades being done in the field, with the individual ship-to-ship differences being the result of the Rebels basically having to patch their ships back together with whatever they have lying around. Not sure about the tube. It LOOKS like it’s meant to evoke the early telescopic gunsights that predated the reflector sight, but it’s poorly positioned and (more importantly) follows the contour of the dash and wouldn’t be able to look out from the cockpit.

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Post by korekwerner » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:09 pm

I will try to mix all three in one. Taking into account that it has to meet practical considerations in the game. We'll see what comes out :-)

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Post by Trevor » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:12 pm

Heh, heres my lame attempt at combining all sources of cockpits
x-wing_cocpits_mashup.png
Trev

P.S. I should note that I did not realise the Blue image above was the "official" blueprint from Lucasfilm, despite it not looking like any movie cockpit.
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Post by The Saxman » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:32 pm

Personally, I'd rather see each of the three main variants — ANH scaled forward view (since few good sources exist on the full-scale mockup 's panel) ESB forward view, and ROTJ forward view — modeled individually that the user could select on install, rather than some Frankensteined hybrid.

The funny thing is, when X-Wing originally came out I remember a lot of people kind of scoffing at the "holographic HUD" concept since there was no obvious place for it to be projected. Flash forward to today where Fifth Generation fighters are doing THAT VERY THING on the pilot's helmet, and it's entirely conceivable that some information really would be projected on the pilot's visor, with only reduced use of multifunction analog displays to explain the lack of obvious conventional gauges.

In fact if you look at the ANH cockpit, its relative simplicity actually DOES evoke this idea to me; you have two main displays, a few status lights, but the rest of the flight information would be projected over the pilot's visor. Maybe the center display is a 3D sensor grid as opposed to separate fore/aft sensor displays, with the right display being a multifunction (so toggling between ship status, mission logs, etc.) The targeting scope could then be fit in the otherwise empty area at the bottom of the console.

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Post by Trevor » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:04 pm

The New F35 cockpit is very much a "glass cockpit" with one giant touch-MFD spanning the top portion and a couple of dials lower down.

HMD-HUD's (as opposed to fixed HUDs on the forward glass) will become the future if they arnt already, with only basic primary functions as backup on the dash.

The apache uses a HMDHUD for targeting if I remember correctly.

Trev

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Post by The Saxman » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:13 pm

HMDs of various types are also being implemented in the F-16, F-15E, F-22, F-35, and F/A-18.

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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:45 pm

The Saxman wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:32 pm
The funny thing is, when X-Wing originally came out I remember a lot of people kind of scoffing at the "holographic HUD" concept
You mean when X-Wing Alliance came out, right?

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Post by The Saxman » Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:55 pm

It went back earlier than that, I think even as early as XvT. It just became more pronounced when XWA was released since it dispensed with active cockpits altogether.

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Post by Driftwood » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:02 pm

Trevor wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:04 pm
The New F35 cockpit is very much a "glass cockpit" with one giant touch-MFD spanning the top portion and a couple of dials lower down.

HMD-HUD's (as opposed to fixed HUDs on the forward glass) will become the future if they arnt already, with only basic primary functions as backup on the dash.

The apache uses a HMDHUD for targeting if I remember correctly.

Trev
The AH-64 also like the F35 can see through the fuselage in a much different monocle based optic that can do IRNV and FLIR. I believe the AH1 is also similarly rigged but (I could be wrong) I don't think you can see through the fuselage in the same manner, not that you really would need to with how the cockpit is configured.

All the AH1Z, UH1Y, and CH53E aiframes have or are being upgraded to run with digital screen based interfaces rather than the old analogue to extend their service life further. Also the CH53K is going to be full digital right off of the factory floor. I don't believe the CH53E has a helmet mounted display offhand, I think the CH53K will. I'm a bit behind in my knowledge of these airframes current state.

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Post by Turgidson » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:07 pm

With a HMD-HUD available, it'd be much more ergonomic and efficient to have the gunsight targeting symbol directly on this HMD-HUD... (or even on a fixed HUD), instead of on a separate cockpit screen. So I have mixed feelings about the canon implementation from the movies...

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Post by The Saxman » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:17 pm

Turgidson wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:07 pm
With a HMD-HUD available, it'd be much more ergonomic and efficient to have the gunsight targeting symbol directly on this HMD-HUD... (or even on a fixed HUD), instead of on a separate cockpit screen. So I have mixed feelings about the canon implementation from the movies...
The problem is canon is canon. HMD or not, for whatever reason Incom decide it was worth having a targeting scope on its own visual display.

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Post by Driftwood » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:29 pm

The Saxman wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:17 pm
Turgidson wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:07 pm
With a HMD-HUD available, it'd be much more ergonomic and efficient to have the gunsight targeting symbol directly on this HMD-HUD... (or even on a fixed HUD), instead of on a separate cockpit screen. So I have mixed feelings about the canon implementation from the movies...
The problem is canon is canon. HMD or not, for whatever reason Incom decide it was worth having a targeting scope on its own visual display.
Well, since everything is inspired and loosely based on existing WW1-WW2 aircraft design elements I imagine the targeting scope is probably a result of this design factor in or out of universe regarding the X-Wing. The MI24-35 Hind gunship to this day as far as I can recall has an analogue targeting scope still, and they have modern HMD's also (I think).

Saxman the issue here is that from an objective standpoint "Canon" can not supersede usability and function within the (current) restrictions of the game we are playing and modifying, we physically cannot pull a targeting computer from behind our shoulder or (unless you have 5DOF headtracking) lean forward enough to be able to peer down a targeting scope to make sticking to 100% "canon" design (which would also be awkward and suck for extended engagements ergonomically). We have to meet in the middle and compromise "canon design" for the sake of function and aesthetic improvement that is better for the player's experience.

If you were talking merely about art assets that had no game functionality beyond looking pretty and provided no impediment to gameplay then you would certainly have a point with maintaining "100% canonical" design philosophy. Semantically your perspective in this case also allows for no in-universe technical and service life alterations and upgrades that would most certainly be implemented by incom, alliance, imperial, ect. technicians over the course of the (X) equipment's lifespan which may not resemble what "is considered canon" from an out of universe perspective. Which frankly said in universe upgrades explanation would more than adequately provides justification to alter things where necessary to make the game both more aesthetically appealing, but to also increase or improve functionality.

The best course of action given our limitations in my opinion is to try an fit as much of the HUD into in cockpit design as closely matching canon placement, appearance, and function IF and where possible; as well as to leave in place the existing projected HUD, or modify it to fit within what an in universe design loosely based on modern HMD components to accommodate those without the means to access head tracking soft/hardware.

Personally, the current HUD I'd like to see modified to fit within the constraints of a "helmet visor" that could be toggled on/off within a single button press, thus turning off/on all the current information displays since they fit within the space a visor would cover the field of view of the person wearing the helmet, minus the message boxes and the targeting display itself, simulating current HMD projection systems that would at least explain the existence of said HUD. If Dynamic Cockpits were utilized, then hypothetically this could be used in addition to, or toggled off by default. The targeting bracket in either case could be hard-locked "ON" to not hamper target acquisition from a gameplay perspective. Obviously from an art perspective, the HUD .dat would need to be modified to represent a helmet visor being down.

I don't like "Canon" arguments for anything besides specific events, people involved in said events and their backstory, and in universe physics and overall lore; design elements not 100% locked into those areas for a reason should be considered as a guideline not a hard rule, especially if there is NO explicit statement as to the reasoning behind the element outside of those areas. This allows both "Canon" and reasonable "Non-Canon" aspects to co-exist and expand the options in a range of subjects.

I also don't care for the perspective of "Canon is only what we have seen in the movies", that's a super limited perspective and contradicts official LFL/Disney statements regarding the IP and its products. One that the story group and the flannel man also retconned several years ago pre-Disney take-over. If one were to apply "Canon" in the current sense being "Everything produced by LFL post Disney acquisition" official stance then XWA isn't canon and we can do whatever the hell we want because the rules are made up and the points don't matter.

As Darksaber always tells me "Just because you shouldn't do something, doesn't mean you can't!" Or was it, "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should!"

And for what it's worth I totally understand where you're coming from.

TL;DR
Gameplay > Canon.

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Post by Darksaber » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:39 pm

Driftwood wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:29 pm
As Darksaber always tells me "Just because you shouldn't do something, doesn't mean you can't!" Or was it, "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should!"
:? :? :? I think I've said it once and I don't think it was actually directed at you personally, and what I wrote was
just because we have the ability to add Higher Res textures and more Flightgroup, doesn't mean we should
I then shortened it in another post to
just because you can, doesn't mean you should
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