Do you have what it takes?

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Re: Do you have what it takes?

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ual002
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Post by ual002 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:18 am

Don't get me started on those damn destroyers. Its like every one of those sequel movies do something to piss me off most people would roll their eyes at, while solo, R1 and mando so far have been good and any questionable things I could hand waive away. The sequel trilogy is like watching a war film where they just don't think they need a military advisor.
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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 am

Most of that can pinned on JJ Abrams. For all the criticism TLJ gets, it at least tried to introduce new ships on both sides.

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Post by Turgidson » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:27 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 am
Most of that can pinned on JJ Abrams. For all the criticism TLJ gets, it at least tried to introduce new ships on both sides.
I'd mostly agree there. There's a lot of stuff from TFA and ROS that I don't want to have to deal with, even if it's now "canon" (at least, Disney-canon).

By the way, I wonder if some strategy game can even be made that'd feature these superlaser SDs - when it's becoming ridiculously overpowered (compensated by stupidity of an even higher level of their commanders), it's not believable anymore.

Somehow, I'd feel my dream-StarWars game (whether space sim or wargame) would mostly feature OT stuff with a few Legends add-ons. Legends also had their issues (already too many superweapons in some parts...), but didn't go as ridiculous as ROS (and TFA before it).

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:40 pm

I'm not a huge fan of those Star Destroyers, but I don't feel they're that strong beyond their ability to blow up planets. I'm pretty sure, unless it attacks head-on, an MC90 or MC85 could easily take out one of them. Heck, I think it's safe to say a few squadrons worth of fighters could take one down because it doesn't have enough point defenses or fighters to cover it.

I also think that's the only reason Palp needed the First Order; because they had the ships to provide cover for otherwise very exposed ships.

That said, they're a stupidly overpowered idea. They could have just made them into ship killers (kinda how that one Venator in ROTS nails a Banking Clan frigate with its beam), but JJ just had to make them planet killers.

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Post by Turgidson » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:20 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:40 pm
I'm not a huge fan of those Star Destroyers, but I don't feel they're that strong beyond their ability to blow up planets. I'm pretty sure, unless it attacks head-on, an MC90 or MC85 could easily take out one of them.
I'd quite doubt that. A MC85 (or MC90: are these even still in the canon?) would have to approach before being in range... and in that phase, the SD can turn and adjust its aim. It seems to me these superlasers are very long range...
Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:40 pm
Heck, I think it's safe to say a few squadrons worth of fighters could take one down because it doesn't have enough point defenses or fighters to cover it.
That's actually true for many capital ships (both in fiction and real world).
On the other side, in a normal situation these things would have had their shields up, and thus would be somewhat tougher beasts. Fighters could still be supported by other ships (such as Escort Carriers).
Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:40 pm
I also think that's the only reason Palp needed the First Order; because they had the ships to provide cover for otherwise very exposed ships.

If you can field a super-fleet of these beasts, you have an industrial strength that could definitely also field teratons of fighters squadrons.
Not having built fighters would be part of what I'd call plain stupidity.
Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:40 pm
That said, they're a stupidly overpowered idea. They could have just made them into ship killers (kinda how that one Venator in ROTS nails a Banking Clan frigate with its beam), but JJ just had to make them planet killers.
Having the Eclipse-class back, with only a very few ones of them, and the support of (numerous) "normal" SDs would have been more than enough.

On the other side, there's no way such a fleet, under the command of a decent admiral, would have lost against a conventional engagement from Resistance remnants...

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:39 pm

Turgidson wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:20 pm
I'd quite doubt that. A MC85 (or MC90: are these even still in the canon?) would have to approach before being in range... and in that phase, the SD can turn and adjust its aim. It seems to me these superlasers are very long range...
Yeah, obviously they couldn't approach at long range and head-on. I only used the MC90 as an example of a relatively modern combat ship, but I feel if it got out of firing arc of the superlaser, the Xyston is done. Considering the power requirements for a super laser, I don't think it can realistically match ships like the MC90, MC85 or a Starhawk in ship-to-ship combat.
Turgidson wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:20 pm
That's actually true for many capital ships (both in fiction and real world).
On the other side, in a normal situation these things would have had their shields up, and thus would be somewhat tougher beasts. Fighters could still be supported by other ships (such as Escort Carriers).
True, but a squadron of bombers could still demolish it, shields or not. As for supporting ships, that's why I feel the Sith Fleet only becomes dangerous if coupled with the First Order fleet, because that fleet does have carriers, cruisers, as well Resurgents, which are superb main line ships to screen the Xyston.

Turgidson wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:20 pm
If you can field a super-fleet of these beasts, you have an industrial strength that could definitely also field teratons of fighters squadrons.
Not having built fighters would be part of what I'd call plain stupidity.
They do have fighters. The movie doesn't show us how good the TIE Dagger is, but given the Xyston hangar is reduced in size to make way for the super laser, I don't feel it has a sufficient fighter complement to protect itself, which brings me to an earlier point where the Sith Fleet is vulnerable to starfighters.

Turgidson wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:20 pm
Having the Eclipse-class back, with only a very few ones of them, and the support of (numerous) "normal" SDs would have been more than enough.

On the other side, there's no way such a fleet, under the command of a decent admiral, would have lost against a conventional engagement from Resistance remnants...
Are you just referring to the first phase of the battle or the one where Lando arrives with the massive fleet?

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Post by Turgidson » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:50 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:39 pm
Yeah, obviously they couldn't approach at long range and head-on. I only used the MC90 as an example of a relatively modern combat ship, but I feel if it got out of firing arc of the superlaser, the Xyston is done. Considering the power requirements for a super laser, I don't think it can realistically match ships like the MC90, MC85 or a Starhawk in ship-to-ship combat.
That's true... but it's a big IF.

The issue is that the superlaser has very long range (contrarily to turbolasers - remember TLJ), and at long range it's mainly a question of rotational speed. With a 10° angle, at 1 000 km distance you'd already cover 170 km, at 10 000 km that'd be 1 700 km. The Xyston would win any long-range engagement, even if not starting head-on.

The only change for another ship to win would be to hyper out right behind the Xyston, already within firing range... and in a situation where there aren't that many Xystons around. WIth 3 Xystons, positioned in a wide triangle (to cover each other at long range), any other group of heavy capital ships would quickly be toast.
Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:39 pm
True, but a squadron of bombers could still demolish it, shields or not. As for supporting ships, that's why I feel the Sith Fleet only becomes dangerous if coupled with the First Order fleet, because that fleet does have carriers, cruisers, as well Resurgents, which are superb main line ships to screen the Xyston.
If you can field these hundreds of superlaser Xystons, you certainly could have fielded a big number of carriers, fighters, and anti-fighter ships (such as Lancers) as well (and fielded a fewer number of Xystons).

With this amount of industrial infrastructure available, any decent commander would have been able to build a balanced Sith fleet... without any need for the First Order's fleet. Of course, sheer stupidity comes to the rescue, so that the Sith can lose...
Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:39 pm
They do have fighters. The movie doesn't show us how good the TIE Dagger is, but given the Xyston hangar is reduced in size to make way for the super laser, I don't feel it has a sufficient fighter complement to protect itself, which brings me to an earlier point where the Sith Fleet is vulnerable to starfighters.
It's vulnerable only because it was built by a grossly incompetent military leadership.
Jaeven wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:39 pm
Are you just referring to the first phase of the battle or the one where Lando arrives with the massive fleet?
The first phase would have been over very quickly (a decent commander wouldn't have left his fleet in the planet's atmosphere, especially considering shielding would have been off, and certainly not tightly packed that way, etc...).

IMHO, any fleet of a size that'd fit the perceived strength of the Rebel Alliance or Resistance - in the 20-40 main capital ships, + support frigates, + fighters - would have been toasted by a Sith fleet of 2-3 Eclipses or so + approx 50-70 ISD-type units + fighters and other supports (and such as fleet would still be quite smaller than the huge amount of Xystons seen in ROS).


Lando's fleet is another example of Disney's (and JJA's) tendencies for overexaggeration: let's make it overly huge and big (maybe because the script is way too thin?). Such a fleet would have been able to withstand the First Order... so why didn't anyone try to assemble it before (for example, to help during TLJ's events)... another inconsistency here.
I'd still think my proposed Sith fleet could beat the Lando fleet: ISDs II already pack good punch, Eclipses would supposedly be very tough units (basically small Death Stars with fewer vulnerabilities).

At any case, such a Sith fleet (even if losing because the script would need to make the good guys win) would still feel much more believable than this thousand of Xystons that were under the worst possible command.

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DarHan
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Post by DarHan » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:58 pm

Turgidson wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:50 pm
Such a fleet would have been able to withstand the First Order... so why didn't anyone try to assemble it before (for example, to help during TLJ's events)... another inconsistency here.
It’s much easier to assemble a fleet when the threat is “every planet will be facing a planet-buster if we don’t all fight now” rather than “can we distract you from a sudden massive invasion of your respective systems for a second to save a single group on a backwater planet”?
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Post by Turgidson » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:44 pm

DarHan wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:58 pm
It’s much easier to assemble a fleet when the threat is “every planet will be facing a planet-buster if we don’t all fight now” rather than “can we distract you from a sudden massive invasion of your respective systems for a second to save a single group on a backwater planet”?
Wasn't "every planet is facing a planet-buster" already what happened in TFA?
Yet, these ships chose to stay out, and instead of fighting a First Order that wasn't necessarily invincible and had just lost its superweapon... they chose to kneel (and allow the First Order to gain even more strength, and perhaps rebuild this very superweapon). THAT situation was actually the moment where these fleets should have gathered and fought back, to avoid the threat of superweapons to come.
But only now, facing new superweapons... they should all choose to revolt and fight it back?

Easier, really?

I'd actually think that the "every planet will be facing a planet-buster if we don’t all fight now" situation would actually be a big incentive for most worlds to gently submit to the Sith rule. Especially when the chances of victory would seem slim.

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Post by General_Trageton » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:37 am

Please don't hijack this topic for Ep9 discussions.
We have a Rise of Skywalker thread in the pilots lounge for you to ramble.
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Rookie_One1
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Post by Rookie_One1 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:05 am

One thing that we could add on the mid to long term : update default missions DAT pictures
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