Imperial starships

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Imperial starships

BigCat
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Post by BigCat » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:41 am

Hi guys,

Just a quick message to really deeply thank the XWAU contributors who worked on the Imperator class Star Destroyers, I and II.

Creating a TIE pilot solo campaign, I noticed that the horrifying "balancing" of the vanilla game Imperator class, that prevented me to even use one as it barely stood a chance against a calamari cruiser, has been corrected.

The ship is now more than twice as expensive as a calamari cruiser MC80, but the price is worth every bit of it. I pitted one with its full complement of 36 TIE LNs, 24 TIE bombers and 12 TIE interceptors, againt a MC80, a Nebulon B frigate (which keep on being really weak), and two correlian corvettes, and their full complement of rebel fighters (here 12 A-Wings, 24 Y-Wings and 24 X-Wings). Cool mission, it's really up to the imperial fighters being able to kill the Rebels' bombers or the bombers getting through. :)

Now the Rebel pilots have to really nail it on its weakspots for their cruisers to stand a chance, and I find the new balance much more interesting, wether flying as a Rebel or an Imperial.

Many thanks for this ! :^^:

And kudos for the Executor, btw, even if I very much doubt it is playable, as its full complement of fighters cannot be deployed, except if you mutliply the fighter waves, which gets boring with time.

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:33 pm

The Executor is somewhat usable. If you want something destroyed in seconds in terms of story, the Executor will do that just fine.

In terms of using it in actual battle, that's a bit more difficult. If you put a Rebel fleet (Several MC80s, Assault Frigates and their entire fighter complement) against a single SSD, it can be quite an interesting fight. Key here would be to deploy the Rebel ships at different angles, so the SSD can't bring its entire firepower to bear on a single target.

Having said that, corvettes and Nebulon-Bs will still die fairly quickly.

The Saxman
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Post by The Saxman » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:29 pm

The sad thing is there was a time where Nebulon-Bs were among the hardest things to kill in the game. I HATED dealing with Nebulon frigates in the original X-Wing. There was never a good angle from which to attack them because of ludicrously dense fire coverage, (whereas Corvettes had that blind spot dead level behind the engines, and Star Destroyers were just so BIG getting close enough they couldn't hit you) and unlike Star Destroyers you had to wear their shields down.

As soon as destroyable components were introduced in TIE Fighter they became ridiculously easy to kill.

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Post by Marcos_Edson » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:12 pm

I remember a particular quote, not sure if here or in one of the older forums, someone stating "(nebulon b) frigates are bitches to kill!" :D
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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:33 am

I remember the Nebulon-Bs in X-wing. Corvettes aside, capital ships in general seemed much harder to kill there than in the later games.

But since we're talking about the discrepancies of XWA, I always disliked the fact Lancers weren't as deadly as they were supposed to be. I know that sounds strange, but going by the novels I felt the Lancer would be a pretty much guaranteed death for any fighter flying to close to it.

On the flip side, I'm not entirely sure where Totally Games idea came from to turn the CR90 Corvette into an anti-fighter vessel. Not only was that not present in their previous games, it also didn't go with at-the-time established canon.

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Post by BigCat » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:36 am

The Saxman wrote:The sad thing is there was a time where Nebulon-Bs were among the hardest things to kill in the game. I HATED dealing with Nebulon frigates in the original X-Wing. There was never a good angle from which to attack them because of ludicrously dense fire coverage, (whereas Corvettes had that blind spot dead level behind the engines, and Star Destroyers were just so BIG getting close enough they couldn't hit you) and unlike Star Destroyers you had to wear their shields down.

As soon as destroyable components were introduced in TIE Fighter they became ridiculously easy to kill.
You're absolutely right, sir ! I find NebulonB's lack of resilience disturbing. :D
It's supposed to be a dangerous ship, and the EU/Legends stated firepower is to be taken into consideration, the Neb's problem is speed and a structural weakness of the central pylon, which can always be solved with strong shields.

I used to have one as a mothership at the beginning of a campaign, since it is supposed to harbour two squadrons, so with twelve fighters and twelve bombers you can do lots of things.

The new Nebulon B is as cheap as a fart but it's completely useless. Even a Correllian corvette can destroy it. :(
I never used the Nebulon B mod/Mk II, I don't know if it's worth it since there is a huge differnce in cost. And I don't like the ship's looks.

It's a shame becacuse there are not many medium sized balanced ships (between being a capable ship and carry enough starfighters).
Dreadnought are good ships but carry only one squadron. Carriers carry too much and are next to worthless as a "ship of the line".

Imperials got the talented Victory Star Destroyer, but it's a really big ship, it's not medium sized anymore.
As for the Rebels, There is nothing between one squadrons calamary light cruiser and three squadrons regular ones. But it's not that a big problem since rebel starfighters are more polyvalent than TIEs. You can do everything in an X-Wing, that's why this ship is legendary. And rebels have hyperdrives, so it's not a big deal if all fighters can't realistically be linked to a mothership.

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Post by The Saxman » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:27 pm

I always hated making the Nebulon B a mothership when creating missions. I'd done some playing around with the models and found it's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to carry more than half a dozen X-wings. And that required gutting the entire upper forward hull and using a two-level hangar (flight deck with below-deck storage).

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Post by BigCat » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:04 pm

The Saxman wrote:I always hated making the Nebulon B a mothership when creating missions. I'd done some playing around with the models and found it's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to carry more than half a dozen X-wings. And that required gutting the entire upper forward hull and using a two-level hangar (flight deck with below-deck storage).
And you're quite right ! It says it can hosts two squadrons of TIE fighters. That's not the same kettle of fish. :P (And if it's six X-Wings tops, even tiny TIEs can't hold in the hangar if there are 24 of them, half of it being TIE bombers... :? )

I always presumed that it was indeed possible for a Nebulon B frigate to see itself be affected two rebel squadrons... But I always assumed the rebel starfighters do not land simultaneously in it. The hangar is only for repairs and resupply, maybe there is some room left for pilots having to sleep or take a leak, but I agree with you, there is no way 24 rebel starfighters can rest together in a Nebulon B.

Being hyperdrive capable, maybe they travel with the Nebulon B for resupply and repairs, but at the end of the mission, instead of staying for months inside the filmsy ship, they go back to their planetary homebase.

I understand it's not 100% convincing, but in this case, being a crappy starship in itself, the Neb B is nothing short of useless. :^^:

So even in the case of a small convoy escort for example, either you go calamari cruiser, or you go "no capital ship", since other capital ships only hosts one squadron.

By the way, I'm not sure a calamari cruiser can host 36 big rebel starfighters or a ISD 72 TIEs of diverse nature. Do you think the modelers cared for scaling properly everything ? :-?

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Post by The Saxman » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:03 pm

It's not the modelers that are at issue. Most of the figures on the fighter compliments and other stats came from West End Games and the D6 RPG. Their research was...suspect at best.

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Post by Drinkinmiester » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:46 pm

The 72 T.i.e. fighter in a isd never seemed too far fetched to me but the factoring in all the ground forces and heavy assault stuff it could supposedly carry it seemed a bit out there. Maybe it could be mixed and matched as needed, kind of like the complement of smaller carriers today can be configured depending on the mission, they carry ASW helos for ASW work or troop transport helos for assaults or harriers for Sea Control, or some mixed combination. Otherwise for an ISD to carry all of that stuff the hull would have to be like a hollow eggshell full of craft and vehicles and there would be a bunch of gear gathering dust in the hold for no reason a lot of times with the destroyer was on more space based duties...

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:17 am

The Saxman wrote:It's not the modelers that are at issue. Most of the figures on the fighter compliments and other stats came from West End Games and the D6 RPG. Their research was...suspect at best.
I'm torn of that. While I do disagree with some of WEG's numbers (notably the 25.000 ISDs for the Empire), the Nebulon-B's fighter complement always sorta made sense to me. Given that the ship is an Imperial design (or was in legends, anyways) it should be relatively easy to stack up TIEs on hangar racks. IIRC, there was also a floor plan for a Nebulon-B Frigate in one of their supplements.

Granted, I'm having a hard time picturing two squadrons of B-wings fitting in there. But having said that, it's still less mind blowing for me than twelve fighters supposedly fitting into a Marauder corvette.

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Post by The Saxman » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:24 am

TIE fighters honestly aren't THAT much smaller than an X-wing (and in some dimensions are actually larger, IE height). You also have to consider it's not just storage space, but you also need room to actually work on them when they need maintenance or repair, or for moving them between the flight deck and the hangar.

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