Episode 8 Discussion (SPOILERS)
Re: Episode 8 Discussion (SPOILERS)
- ANDREW L
- Posts: 2634
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:01 am
I saw it opening night and when the credits hit I was left feeling really confused. My g/f who's not a big Star Wars fan loved it.
The more I thought about it though the more I am starting to dislike it.
Parts I enjoyed:
Rey's force vision with the mirrors. Really cool scene
Rey and Kylo Ren fighting the red guards. Great Action
Force Ghost Yoda. Really nice surprise to see him again.
Things that clinged to me as total missed opportunities or things I disliked.
- No Lando at Canto Bight? Billy Dee has stated multiple times that he would love to come back as Lando and Rian Johnson said he didn't have room to put the Lando character anywhere in this move. BS! Even if it was a cameo it would have been the perfect setting to see Lando in.
- No Obi Wan force ghost. Ewan McGreggor is at the right age to play an old Obi Wan and he could totally pull it off too. Would have been a nice touch to see Obi Wan back Yoda up or remind Luke who he was
- Snoke dying this early. This really came as a shock and I get that they wanted to build up Kylo as the new villain with no leash but we got no back story to Snoke, we got no Knights of Ren, and it left me there scratching my head. I know the typical counter argument to this is Palpatine got no back story in the OT but the thing is this is a continuation of Episodes 1-6, after 6 the empire has fallen how did this being rise to power and how is he so powerful are things that need to be answered.
- Luke dying this early. I am fine Luke passing on to get a new generation of characters in however I feel like his story isn't done yet and I would have rather waited for this to happen in 9 than 8. It's too soon for me.
Things I thought could have been better:
- When they were tracked through hyperspace I initially thought there's a mole on the ship. I think that story line would have been so much better than Finn and Rose sneaking off to look for a code breaker. It could have built some tension on the ship and they could have gotten really creative with it
- When Luke projected himself and felt weak after this is the part I would have loved to see a force ghost Obi Wan appear and ask Luke if he was ok and have Luke say something like it's been so long since I have used the force I had forgotten what it was like and have Obi Wan say something like it will come back to you in time come we have work to do... or SOMETHING along those lines.
Just my 2 cents but I feel like this entire move was a missed opportunity and as lame or silly as this sounds kind of makes me feel like I got kicked in the gut because of how this beloved franchise is being handled. Disney is going to hurt Star Wars with this movie a year for the enforceable future thing. I wish they would have taken a step back and did what DC has done recently and that would be to work on some really awesome animated movies that told EU stories and used those to build up to a new trilogy. If you aren't sure what I am talking about take a look at this link which lists them all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Univer ... nal_Movies
All of them that I have seen so far are absolutely superb and blow away their live action movies. Disney could have easily done something like this to build up their next movies and built a solid base around it. Again my 2 cents but I fear for the future of Star Wars.
The more I thought about it though the more I am starting to dislike it.
Parts I enjoyed:
Rey's force vision with the mirrors. Really cool scene
Rey and Kylo Ren fighting the red guards. Great Action
Force Ghost Yoda. Really nice surprise to see him again.
Things that clinged to me as total missed opportunities or things I disliked.
- No Lando at Canto Bight? Billy Dee has stated multiple times that he would love to come back as Lando and Rian Johnson said he didn't have room to put the Lando character anywhere in this move. BS! Even if it was a cameo it would have been the perfect setting to see Lando in.
- No Obi Wan force ghost. Ewan McGreggor is at the right age to play an old Obi Wan and he could totally pull it off too. Would have been a nice touch to see Obi Wan back Yoda up or remind Luke who he was
- Snoke dying this early. This really came as a shock and I get that they wanted to build up Kylo as the new villain with no leash but we got no back story to Snoke, we got no Knights of Ren, and it left me there scratching my head. I know the typical counter argument to this is Palpatine got no back story in the OT but the thing is this is a continuation of Episodes 1-6, after 6 the empire has fallen how did this being rise to power and how is he so powerful are things that need to be answered.
- Luke dying this early. I am fine Luke passing on to get a new generation of characters in however I feel like his story isn't done yet and I would have rather waited for this to happen in 9 than 8. It's too soon for me.
Things I thought could have been better:
- When they were tracked through hyperspace I initially thought there's a mole on the ship. I think that story line would have been so much better than Finn and Rose sneaking off to look for a code breaker. It could have built some tension on the ship and they could have gotten really creative with it
- When Luke projected himself and felt weak after this is the part I would have loved to see a force ghost Obi Wan appear and ask Luke if he was ok and have Luke say something like it's been so long since I have used the force I had forgotten what it was like and have Obi Wan say something like it will come back to you in time come we have work to do... or SOMETHING along those lines.
Just my 2 cents but I feel like this entire move was a missed opportunity and as lame or silly as this sounds kind of makes me feel like I got kicked in the gut because of how this beloved franchise is being handled. Disney is going to hurt Star Wars with this movie a year for the enforceable future thing. I wish they would have taken a step back and did what DC has done recently and that would be to work on some really awesome animated movies that told EU stories and used those to build up to a new trilogy. If you aren't sure what I am talking about take a look at this link which lists them all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Univer ... nal_Movies
All of them that I have seen so far are absolutely superb and blow away their live action movies. Disney could have easily done something like this to build up their next movies and built a solid base around it. Again my 2 cents but I fear for the future of Star Wars.
<A HREF="http://jkdf2.net/jklex/" TARGET=_blank>JKLE</A><P>One of the last active JK and MotS clan<P><I>Legends return one last time</I>
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The worst part about Johnson's comments about Lando is when he said that having Lando — who would have filled DJ's role — betray everyone to save his own skin would have been out of character.
In the same movie where Luke goes MASSIVELY OOC to contemplate murdering his nephew in cold blood to the point HE STANDS OVER HIS BED WITH AN IGNITED LIGHTSABER. Which requires pretty much ignoring EVERYTHING he learned in Empire and Jedi.
In the same movie where Luke goes MASSIVELY OOC to contemplate murdering his nephew in cold blood to the point HE STANDS OVER HIS BED WITH AN IGNITED LIGHTSABER. Which requires pretty much ignoring EVERYTHING he learned in Empire and Jedi.
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I don't think he's OOC, he lost it before when Vader threatened Leia, whatever he saw in Kylo must have been something extremely bad, if anything after thirty years he has learned not to go completely berserk.The Saxman wrote:The worst part about Johnson's comments about Lando is when he said that having Lando — who would have filled DJ's role — betray everyone to save his own skin would have been out of character.
In the same movie where Luke goes MASSIVELY OOC to contemplate murdering his nephew in cold blood to the point HE STANDS OVER HIS BED WITH AN IGNITED LIGHTSABER. Which requires pretty much ignoring EVERYTHING he learned in Empire and Jedi.
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There's a big, BIG difference in circumstances between Luke's final showdown with Vader, and what happened with Kylo Ren. That people try to equate the two boggles my mind.
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Yes, Luke in ROTJ was young and went berserk, in TLJ he was old and the temptation was only a fleeting moment but the basic character flaw is the same.The Saxman wrote:There's a big, BIG difference in circumstances between Luke's final showdown with Vader, and what happened with Kylo Ren. That people try to equate the two boggles my mind.
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No. Luke was actively fighting Vader for his life, and acted when Vader made a direct threat against his Leia. In Last Jedi he STOOD OVER HIS SLEEPING NEPHEW'S BED and contemplated murdering him in cold blood. Those are two COMPLETELY different situations and circumstances. There's no "basic character flaw" involved.
- Vince T
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Dude you‘re really getting worked up about this....
It‘s happened, arguing whether or not it‘s likely to happen in a fictional character‘s psyche will not undo these things. Who knows, maybe in EpIX it will turn out that all the years of fighting the Empire left Luke with an undiagnosed severe case of PTSD
It‘s happened, arguing whether or not it‘s likely to happen in a fictional character‘s psyche will not undo these things. Who knows, maybe in EpIX it will turn out that all the years of fighting the Empire left Luke with an undiagnosed severe case of PTSD
Your ship, Captain. I need a drink. - Vince Trageton
Vince T's X-Wing HQ - where the bad guys get their gear
Vince T's X-Wing HQ - where the bad guys get their gear
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I have no greater pet peeve as a writer than seeing continuity and past characterization ignored in order to force a specific development in the story.
- ANDREW L
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- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:01 am
Yeah I had a really hard time with this too but left it out of my review.The Saxman wrote:No. Luke was actively fighting Vader for his life, and acted when Vader made a direct threat against his Leia. In Last Jedi he STOOD OVER HIS SLEEPING NEPHEW'S BED and contemplated murdering him in cold blood. Those are two COMPLETELY different situations and circumstances. There's no "basic character flaw" involved.
Another argument is that we have to move on to new characters which is fine we can but I think Luke should have gone out differently. Knowing the old EU and what could have been it's very disappointing to see the route they took with Luke. I would have loved to see his academy with students training and a new generation of Jedi to take on the mantle of our new heros while Luke either fades away or goes out in a big battle defending the academy or something along those lines.
<A HREF="http://jkdf2.net/jklex/" TARGET=_blank>JKLE</A><P>One of the last active JK and MotS clan<P><I>Legends return one last time</I>
- Vince T
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Heh I can‘t help thinking:
If all the trilogies had been created and released in chronological order, people would likely have critizied how Obi-Wan had been killed off half-way into ANH in an unspectacular duel with his former pupil to distract from his allies’ escapeupon whose conclusion he simply throws the towell, fades away and becomes one with the Force. Curious.
I‘m probably a bad Star Wars fan as I don‘t feel that strobgly about those plot points and actually find myself amused about how emotional ppl get, outrageing about these things as if they really happened.
*ducks*
If all the trilogies had been created and released in chronological order, people would likely have critizied how Obi-Wan had been killed off half-way into ANH in an unspectacular duel with his former pupil to distract from his allies’ escapeupon whose conclusion he simply throws the towell, fades away and becomes one with the Force. Curious.
I‘m probably a bad Star Wars fan as I don‘t feel that strobgly about those plot points and actually find myself amused about how emotional ppl get, outrageing about these things as if they really happened.
*ducks*
Your ship, Captain. I need a drink. - Vince Trageton
Vince T's X-Wing HQ - where the bad guys get their gear
Vince T's X-Wing HQ - where the bad guys get their gear
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By avoiding fighting him because he didn't want to kill him.The Saxman wrote:No. Luke was actively fighting Vader for his life, and acted when Vader made a direct threat against his Leia. In Last Jedi he STOOD OVER HIS SLEEPING NEPHEW'S BED and contemplated murdering him in cold blood. Those are two COMPLETELY different situations and circumstances. There's no "basic character flaw" involved.
Then his loved ones are threatened and goes full berserk on him.
Which is also the same flaw his father has, only Luke at a certain point always stops and reconsiders while Anakin didn't.
The tragedy of TLJ is that even that wasn't enough and it utterly broke him.
It's almost like a certain image of Luke is so ingrained in a part of pop culture that the moment people are reminded he has flaws they start to panic.General_Trageton wrote:Heh I can‘t help thinking:
If all the trilogies had been created and released in chronological order, people would likely have critizied how Obi-Wan had been killed off half-way into ANH in an unspectacular duel with his former pupil to distract from his allies’ escapeupon whose conclusion he simply throws the towell, fades away and becomes one with the Force. Curious.
I‘m probably a bad Star Wars fan as I don‘t feel that strobgly about those plot points and actually find myself amused about how emotional ppl get, outrageing about these things as if they really happened.
*ducks*
- Trevor
- Posts: 541
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:11 pm
First thoughts - Brilliant film.
However I do have my nitpicks, but I think others have pretty much covered them.
I still think that the biggest mistake was Ep7 with Star Killer Base and the terminology used. Ep8 fixes the terminology part mostly.
By Terminology I mean "First Order" and "Resistance" including the symbols representing both.
The Republic symbol was the spoked ringed octagon, which was changed to the spoked ringed hexagon. The Rebellion had the winged flame (for want of a better description) and when the Rebellion won and made the new Republic they should have re-used the Republic Symbol.
Now this is where Ep7 got it wrong for me, the "First Order" were "resisting" the Republic and the "Resistance" should have been Republic Forces.
As I say, Ep8 "fixed" my annoyance by the First Order essentially driving the Republic into the dirt and becoming the de-facto government to allow the "Resitance" to become "Rebels" again.
Trev
However I do have my nitpicks, but I think others have pretty much covered them.
I still think that the biggest mistake was Ep7 with Star Killer Base and the terminology used. Ep8 fixes the terminology part mostly.
By Terminology I mean "First Order" and "Resistance" including the symbols representing both.
The Republic symbol was the spoked ringed octagon, which was changed to the spoked ringed hexagon. The Rebellion had the winged flame (for want of a better description) and when the Rebellion won and made the new Republic they should have re-used the Republic Symbol.
Now this is where Ep7 got it wrong for me, the "First Order" were "resisting" the Republic and the "Resistance" should have been Republic Forces.
As I say, Ep8 "fixed" my annoyance by the First Order essentially driving the Republic into the dirt and becoming the de-facto government to allow the "Resitance" to become "Rebels" again.
Trev