Why all must die!? ...under starships fire...

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Why all must die!? ...under starships fire...

unmarcz
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Post by unmarcz » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:24 pm

Hi all,
:hilfe: I have big issue with starships fire :hilfe: . Starships always kills all my rebel fighters. Is impossible to complete some missions from capaign. Yes, I have last Hooks and last versions of all mods :D

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Thank you for any tips ;)

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Post by Vince T » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:25 pm

Which missions, and whch starships in particular?
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Post by unmarcz » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:37 pm

For example:

B1M1 - strike cruiser and container transport - Kill all Y-Wings and X-Wings

B1M4 - dreadnaught - Kill all Y-wing and dreadnaught isnt disabled

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Forceflow

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Post by Forceflow » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:49 pm

unmarcz wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:37 pm
For example:

B1M1 - strike cruiser and container transport - Kill all Y-Wings and X-Wings

B1M4 - dreadnaught - Kill all Y-wing and dreadnaught isnt disabled
For B1M1 try a different version of the container transport: https://www.xwaupgrade.com/download/mod ... t_v2.2.exe
Though be aware the mission is tough and you'll need to do a lot of the work yourself. Remember that you can fly back to your home ship to rearm. You will need to do this and dumb-fire your torpedoes.

B1M4 is really tough. I think I fixed this by going into Allied and moving the jump-in point in the third area a bit farther away from the station to give the Y-Wings more time to disable it. Though you need to race ahead in the second area and dump your torpedoes in it for sure before attacking the assault gunboats. Unfortunately I don't have the fixed mission anymore. Lost hat When I switched PCs :(

Anybody else have a solution for B1M4?
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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:28 pm

B1M1: I remember only the Container Transports were overpowered (against fighters), not the Strike Cruiser.

B1M4: Playing this mission at Medium difficulty all should go smoothly, the trouble come with Hard.
The Dreadnaught is right, I don't think XWAUCP v1.6 added cannons to the Dreadnaught2.opt (is this the right opt?).
The Dreadnaught problem is that you cannot disable any crafts in an X-Wing. You simply do not have ion cannons.
This means you have to count on the Y-Wings, so even if the Dreadnaught is not OP, the Y-Wings will eventually be taken down before thay can disable it.
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:37 pm

B1M4: Dreadnaught problem
I will think at a solution to this problem for a future version of the Mission Update project, but in the meantime if you want a simple, brutal solution, you can set Ion Pulse Torpedoes as optional warheads for player's flight group (X-W Red 1).
Select X-W Red 1 (it's the first FG) and open the Datapad, "Options" tab, simply select "(Ion Pulse Torpedoes)" under the Warheads list.
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Post by Will T » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:51 pm

I've never had a problem with B1M4, outside of occasional weird AI behaviour. Never takes more than 2 or 3 goes though.

Admittedly, I basically never play on Hard, only on Medium.

One thing you can do to help out, though, is destroy the turbolaser hardpoints on each side of the Dreadnaught (the big oval bulges - you should be able to sub-target them by pressing ,). Fewer guns means the Y-Wings are more likely to survive and finish disabling it. You can destroy them before the shields are out, I believe.

Also, you can save one of the Y-Wings as a target preset (Shift-F5, I think?), recall it and then press A to target any fighters attacking it.


But as everyone else has stated, XWAU shouldn't have any affect on that mission.

B1M1 has already been covered, you need the 'fixed' version of the Container Transport with the right amount of weapon hardpoints.
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Post by Darksaber » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:36 pm

I've checked out the Dreadnaught both Mine and JM's comparing them to the original Dreadnaught

Mine had 9 Laser hardpoint more than it should of had and JM's had a couple more but the hardpoints on his where set to super turbo laser instead of empire turbo laser

Both opts have been updated to have exactly the same amount of empire turbo laser hardpoints as the original 19!

The strike cruiser has been checked out and has exactly the same amount of hardpoints again as the original

last but not least the Container Transport was corrected a while back removing the excess hardpoint, it again has the same amount as the original

All 3 updated opt can be found in the download section, please install and test them
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Post by Vince T » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:52 pm

This may be slightly related: I'm not sure how much the type of hardpoints impacts the gameplay, if something different is specified in the craft info.
The original TG Victory SD only had Empirelaser hardpoints, whereas, if you look at it in MXvTEd, it's set up with Turbo- and Super-lasers instead.
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Post by unmarcz » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:29 am

Thanks to all! Today,when I get to home from work, I'll try.

Thanks a lot for XWA upgrade.

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Post by Mark_Farlander » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:24 am

Darksaber wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:36 pm
I've checked out the Dreadnaught both Mine and JM's comparing them to the original Dreadnaught

Mine had 9 Laser hardpoint more than it should of had and JM's had a couple more but the hardpoints on his where set to super turbo laser instead of empire turbo laser

Interesting. A Container Transport with 6 more laser hardpoints than in vanilla XWA was way overpowered, whereas a Dreadnaught with 9 more laser hardpoints didn't do the same effect to me. I mean I didn't realize the Dreadnaught weaponry had been upgraded while I was playing.
I think this much depends on the "weaponry/surface ratio": 6 more laser hardpoints made a Container Transport (which is a small craft) more deadly than a Corellian Gunship against fighters, whereas 9 more laser hardpoints in a Dreadnaught, which is a relatively big craft, didn't do the same effect at a point I didn't even notice the upgraded weaponry.

Thanks for having restored the original number of laser hardpoints anyway.
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Post by Darksaber » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:12 am

Your welcome, I didn't even realise my Dreadnaught had more hardpoints on it until I investigated, but it best to keep thing as close to the original

I didn't even realise the original doesn't have any hangar hardpoints on it what so ever, I have altered the hangar hardpoints on both Mine and JM's opts, hopefully it will make it more accessible to AI craft, that board the Dreadnaught, we'll see :)

@GT I don't think the type of laser hardpoint will make much difference, you just have to look at the speed and power, there is probably a slight difference but not much, obviously if the original craft had say 20 hardoints and you increased that to 40 there would be a difference, but I'm not sure of the larger starships, you would have to test the original VSD with your new one, make a skirmish one on one with a ship smaller than the VSD, to see how long the VSD would take it down, if your VSD takes it down faster than the original VSD, then you might have to rethink things, as it will unbalance the missions it's in, I dunno :? :? :?
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Post by Vince T » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:03 pm

OK I conducted some tests in Skirmish editor, VSD versus Strike Cruiser
As the teams start off on different planes I will test both sides,
Rebel = lower plane
Imperial Upper plane

Round 1-3: Distance 1km, VSD on the upper plane
VSD Vanilla: 2:00
VSD V1: 1:44
VSD v2: 2:09

Round 4-6: Distance 1km, VSD on the lower plane
VSD Vanilla: 1:25
VSD V1: 1:28
VSD v2: 1:23

That was pretty enlightening. Turns out the old v1 upgrade was slightly overpowered on its underside, while the v2 is actually a bit weaker. Meanwhile, on the upper side the three are about equal varying by 2-3 seconds from the original.

Still, not 100% satisfied yet, The skirmish editor tends to randomize the mission positions between starts. I'll whip up a test mission where all positions are fixed and unchanged and then just exchange the OPTs.

To be continued...
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Post by Darksaber » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:11 pm

Not really a bad result though, agreed it might be better in a test mission more controlled :)
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Post by unmarcz » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:30 pm

After Dreadnaught update :/ Dreadnaught fire blue lasers (not Ion), Y-wings are again all down. But Dreadnaught was finally disabled by Assault transport...
:? So, it is better but not like in original...
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Post by Rookie_One1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:47 pm

To be fair, knowing that the dreadnaught-class was a old-republic era warship, blue lasers make sense
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Post by Darksaber » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:48 pm

Yes it's supposed to have blue lasers, you'll have to start thinking outside the box when it comes to laser colors, not everything is red and green
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Post by darklord » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:18 am

Will the container transport and dreadnaught get a "New" on the download page? I almost missed them if I didn't see this thread. Any others that were updated?

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Post by capitanguinea » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:54 am

I have to say that, just in case... if I remember Turbolaser make 3 times damage than laser. Each hardpoint multiply for appropriate factor as per single, dual, and quad linked firing. Turbolaser shot are 60% slower than laser and have double range. Accuracy % hitting small targets are 2/3 of standard ballistic skill for AI, for Turbolaser. Those setting vere stated by Lawrence since the first xwing game. I believe are the same in xwa engine. So if you swap turbolaser per laser (and ImperialLaser ARE turbolaser only weakened to make possible to engage the big ships as VSD and ISD) you are going to have a very challenging barrage for snubfighter: every hit would be probably a kill

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Post by capitanguinea » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:01 am

So there is another issue. It is true that starship fire build a shell around until 2.5 clicks but turbolaser shot do no dissipate until 5 km. So if a starship shot to a target with her main guns and misses those overshoting would continue and could effectively blast target far over. Now modern cpu made AI shot at a very increased rate respect to the intended values 20 years ago... so you have to consider that roving flakk fire this fact creates
Last edited by capitanguinea on Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darksaber » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:33 am

Yoda you write like
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”
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Post by Vince T » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:13 pm

@DS, I think you got it wrong. I think it should go like this:
"Write like Yoda you do, hmm" :P

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Post by Darksaber » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:23 pm

Agree I do lol

I beat when you read that it's in Yoda's voice lol :D
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”
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Post by Forceflow » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:42 pm

Guys, maybe be a bit more conscious that we do actually have a lot of folks here whose first language isn't English. Any in many cases not even their second language. I know it's not meant in a mean way, but it can certainly discourage people joining the conversation.

While I agree the post is a bit hard to unpack this is what I gathered from the post:

Turbolasers do tripple damage to regular lasers, are 60% slower but have double the range. And the accuracy is different as well (I admit I don't quite get that part myself) Since ImperialLasers are turbolasers swapping those out will make it a lot harder to attack a craft for small fighters.

In addition to that starships create a bubble of flak fire around them at 2.5 km when the shots dissipate whereas turbolasers actually last for 5 km. Also apparently due to better CPUs accuracy of the AI is improved making the fire even more deadly.

All of this can of lead to even small changes in armament to result in a drastically more difficult game. (Especially since it will most likely affect player allies since they cannot adjust to the higher range and accuracy)

Not saying those are facts, but that's how I understood his posts.
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Post by capitanguinea » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:54 pm

Darksaber wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:33 am
Yoda you write like
So sorry, I am Italian. Written English is no more a skill I use abitually so is fading a bit... :D
Next time I will post in italian, and you could use Google Translator XD

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