[Suggestion] Standardise Craft Scale

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[Suggestion] Standardise Craft Scale

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Trevor
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Post by Trevor » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:33 pm

A while back I mentioned in the VR topic that some craft had different scales, but at the time I couldn't not state a specific example.

While attempting to create shadowmap objs for the latest VR I hit the problem on my very first attempt.

The Exterior and Cockpit use completely different scales and it shows in VR if you "free roam".

Here is the A-Wing to show what I mean.
XWA ScaleIssues VR.png
As you can see, the cockpit is much larger than the exterior.

I added a figure for reference and a box showing the "real" size of the A-Wing of which neither the cockpit or the exterior fit.

I know this will be a low priority suggestion, but with VR giving us the "reach out and touch" capability, we can now also see the problems of using different scales.

Trev
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ual002
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Post by ual002 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:52 pm

Agreed. Cockpit size does seem to vary slightly. TIES seem a little roomy. But even without VR, it becomes immediately apparent that the A-wing Exterior SPECIFICALLY is too small when I was messing about with populating hangar maps.

I would recommend we find the proper scale factor for the Awing exterior and then back track to the pit.

There is always going to be a bit of fudging numbers because scale in SW has always been an issue of variation, and first to publish stats, when often they are wrong.
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Trevor
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Post by Trevor » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:27 pm

There is always going to be a bit of fudging numbers because scale in SW has always been an issue of variation, and first to publish stats, when often they are wrong.
Agreed, I found an interesting article specifically for the A-Wing http://www.rebelscale.com/scale-lists/s ... wing-size/
It is also mentioned that ILM re-scaled a whole bunch of models for Rogue One for using a standard pilot.

What I found weird was that the original TIE was modeled with a 1/24th figure in it BUT filmed with an actor at a much bigger scale (which became the "true" scale)
Same with the Y-Wing, the ILM table shows a bunch of X-Wings, Y-Wings and a TIE yet while they all have 1.24th figures in them, they are different scales because they are physically of similar size (for the camera)

But still, while the numbers do change around, we need to pick one and at least make the exterior and cockpit match for each model.

Trev

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blue_max
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Post by blue_max » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:27 pm

While I agree that the scale needs to be fixed in some cockpits, the A-Wing is kind of an outlier here. From what I remember (and I could be wrong), DTM updated the A-Wing's cockpit so that the AC/DC elements were easier to read. If you guys install XWAUP 1.6 and look at the A-Wing's cockpit, you'll see the original scale used by DS. I believe DTM made it bigger by 120% or so.

So, here's another problem: if we "fix" the scale of the A-Wing as it originally was in XWAUP 1.6, then the AC/DC elements will be too small/won't fit.

I'm also considering adding a per-craft scale parameter, but I'm not sure it will work very well, because the lasers won't match anymore the cockpit mesh. So... this doesn't look like an easy problem to solve. More Thinkation Needed.

Trevor, could you share the standard sitting pilot model, please? I'd like to measure that against the TIE cockpits.

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Trevor
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Post by Trevor » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:47 pm

Trevor, could you share the standard sitting pilot model, please? I'd like to measure that against the TIE cockpits.
Not sure what you mean? Its the same model everyone has and while DS is no longer here I know he was antsy about people sharing or using "his" stuff.
If however you mean the guy standing with his arm forward sure, he's 007 :P (Scale is mm, so needs shrunk down by 0.001)

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ual002
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Post by ual002 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:43 am

The interior is probably fine, its the exterior that needs scale increase I think.
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blue_max
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Post by blue_max » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:33 am

Trevor wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:47 pm
Its the same model everyone has and while DS is no longer here I know he was antsy about people sharing or using "his" stuff.
Oh I see. I didn't realize the Exterior OPTs had a full sitting pilot (I thought it was just a torso + helmet. No problem. The standing model is also good. Thanks.

@ual002: Not sure what you mean. We need to shrink the interior of the cockpit in the TIE ships, right?

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Post by ual002 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:32 am

Yes. For ties, shrink pit. For a-wing, scale up exterior.
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ual002
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Post by ual002 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:33 am

Yes. For ties, shrink pit. For a-wing, scale up exterior.

However before we do anything permanent we need to have a wider discussion. Because im not gonna lie, outside vr, the tie pits look fine.
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Trevor
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Post by Trevor » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:50 pm

ual002 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:33 am
, outside vr,
... and any future Shadow Casting (which is what I was doing here) :P

Trev

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Post by Ronin65 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:57 pm

You also have to remember these models where made before VR was made available for XWA, as the Awing is in it present form of the cockpit being larger than the exterior and base craft, you don't notice the size difference in game.

I experimented and replaced the cockpit with the exterior model, changing the POV so you look like your sitting in the cockpit, the front instrument panel is far too close to you. I have a feeling the cockpit was made larger or more elongated as to fit the perspective view seen in the cockpit.

The Awing opt in it's present form is 6.24 metres, it's not that far off the article Trevor posted with the Awing estimated at 7 metres, if the present awing was scaled to be 7 metres, which isn't going to be that noticeable, then using the exterior as a basis to create a new cockpit with the same dimensions, the front instrument panel is still going to be under your chin, you could try this experiment yourselves, I think you'll come up with the same conclusion.

I doubt Darksaber's Awing is accurate, and instead of trying to fix it, wouldn't it be easier to start from scratch and create a new Awing model?

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capitanguinea
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Post by capitanguinea » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:06 pm

Would be usefull to have the construction chart with measure referements from a real model kit?

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ual002
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Post by ual002 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:45 am

Well, messing with the hangar maps, particularly rebel ones which I usually never touch, i can't help but think it looks too tiny.
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blue_max
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Post by blue_max » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:50 am

Funny, but the A-Wing seems about right to me in VR. I think someone compared it to driving a small sports car with a couple of rockets attached to its back -- and I agree. I'm not sure we would like to throw away Darksaber's work completely either, I was just pointing out that the differences in scale were due to AC/DC, and DS's original work didn't have this problem.

In any case, I think that using a "standard sitting pilot" model should guide our decisions too. If the seat and cockpit fit the pilot model, they should also look OK in VR.

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capitanguinea
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Post by capitanguinea » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:00 am

Remember a thing, the "standard human" in program like CAD and similar it is about 1.70 meter un height. Pilots tend to be a bit shorter, around 1.60

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