Does XWAU unknowingly change the difficulty of the campaign?

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Does XWAU unknowingly change the difficulty of the campaign?

SharpEdge
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Post by SharpEdge » Tue May 19, 2020 6:08 am

I feel like scaling changes and new collision boxes and maybe turret placement has buffed a lot of the larger ship and skewed a lot of difficulty balance out of wack.

I just don't remember my entire AI squad getting shredded by Container Transports on the first Convoy Attack mission on Medium.

Is there any other input on this? I understand most hardcore players don't touch the normal campaign after a point so maybe it's overlooked.

Any git gud comments will be noted as unhelpful. An aesthetics mod shouldn't effect difficulty. Maybe there's more complex stuff going on though.
Last edited by SharpEdge on Tue May 19, 2020 6:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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keiranhalcyon7
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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Tue May 19, 2020 6:17 am


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Ace Antilles
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Post by Ace Antilles » Tue May 19, 2020 12:18 pm

SharpEdge wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:08 am
I feel like scaling changes and new collision boxes and maybe turret placement has buffed a lot of the larger ship and skewed a lot of difficulty balance out of wack.

I just don't remember my entire AI squad getting shredded by Container Transports on the first Convoy Attack mission on Medium.

Is there any other input on this? I understand most hardcore players don't touch the normal campaign after a point so maybe it's overlooked.

Any git gud comments will be noted as unhelpful. An aesthetics mod shouldn't effect difficulty. Maybe there's more complex stuff going on though.
Download the Container Transport v2.2. It was made too tough with too many weapons.
It was fixed a while ago, That should help. See the readme file.
https://www.xwaupgrade.com/download/mod ... t_v2.2.exe
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Vince T
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Post by Vince T » Tue May 19, 2020 12:23 pm

@Forceflow, it might make sense that the OPTs that receive such fixes, get a NEW or UPDATED badge as well so it's clear they're newer than the ones contained in the Craft Pack(s)
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Post by Will T » Tue May 19, 2020 1:43 pm

I don't know if the project is ever going to be 'completed' or if even once all the models are done people will just want to go back and update older ones again. I don't know if it's even worth waiting for all opts to be completed as some of them are incredibly minor and don't generate the interest for modellers to redo.

But at some point, when as many models as possible are done, the missions will need a balance pass done on them.

The Container Transports issue was an obvious one, and has been fixed. But there are subtle changes to balance throughout the missions.

The doubled rate of fire on the Corellian Transport autofire turrets makes the family missions way easier, for example.

B4M5 is way harder now, and I haven't figured out exactly why. I noticed the biggest spike in difficulty (it seems almost impossible now to be honest) after the new Rebel Platform was released. I have to wonder if it's something to do with the radically different geometry. I don't know whether its a problem with the pathing of the ships around it, or whether being 'taller' makes it easier for the SSD to hit it, but the platform in that mission dies so quickly, and the explosion usually takes the Razor with it.

There's a couple of missions involving docking that are now way harder because the docking hardpoints are at a slightly different elevation, and the flight path of enemy fighters that originally took them just into gun range for the turrets now takes them under, and you can't hit them to kill them before they kill you.

The new Falcon being too big for the DSII tunnels is another classic example that got brought up again recently. As DS was saying, though, unless a flat scale increase on the tunnel opts without causing clipping or placement issues, it's going to be a ton of work to fix that one. I did wonder if it might be possible to use the model replacement hook to use the old TG model for that mission only, but I couldn't get it to work.
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Post by Vince T » Tue May 19, 2020 2:28 pm

That raises a question, how does XWA calculate collisions with the player craft? Does it use the Exterior model's or the base model's hitbox? Also, would using the replacement hook only replace the base opt file or replace the entire ship including cockpit and exterior? If not, you could theoretically replace the Player craft with a smaller ship but still have the appearance of flying the Falcon.
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Post by Darksaber » Tue May 19, 2020 3:34 pm

Will T wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:43 pm
B4M5 is way harder now, and I haven't figured out exactly why. I noticed the biggest spike in difficulty (it seems almost impossible now to be honest) after the new Rebel Platform was released. I have to wonder if it's something to do with the radically different geometry. I don't know whether its a problem with the pathing of the ships around it, or whether being 'taller' makes it easier for the SSD to hit it, but the platform in that mission dies so quickly, and the explosion usually takes the Razor with it.

There's a couple of missions involving docking that are now way harder because the docking hardpoints are at a slightly different elevation, and the flight path of enemy fighters that originally took them just into gun range for the turrets now takes them under, and you can't hit them to kill them before they kill you.

The new Falcon being too big for the DSII tunnels is another classic example that got brought up again recently. As DS was saying, though, unless a flat scale increase on the tunnel opts without causing clipping or placement issues, it's going to be a ton of work to fix that one. I did wonder if it might be possible to use the model replacement hook to use the old TG model for that mission only, but I couldn't get it to work.
Personally I would like someone to make a new Rebel Platform, Yes I know I lent a hand in making this new one, but I was oblivious to what effect it would have on the missions. A new Rebel Platform needs to mimic the old TG version, but obviously updated. The version that Driftwood and I put together is a great looking model don't get me wrong, but I think it would be better suited in a custom mission as it's caused too many problems as it is.

Yes the tunnels are a problem, and like I said I don't even know if it would work rescaling them, someone need to experiment though :D
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SharpEdge
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Post by SharpEdge » Tue May 19, 2020 5:59 pm

Darksaber wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 3:34 pm

Yes the tunnels are a problem, and like I said I don't even know if it would work rescaling them, someone need to experiment though :D

Forgive my complete ignorance of how this works, but is it possible just to get a smaller but still detailed Falcon you can download separately to use on that mission? I assume there's more going on.

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Post by Vince T » Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 pm

I had to bounce that thought back and forth a bit, but unless I make a big logical error here, that should be doable.
Anybody correct me if I'm wrong, but in theory all you had to do is make a scaled-down version of the MillenniumFalconExterior.opt use it as base opt, then a modified version of the cockpit OPT to match the scaled down Falcon's PoV and then use the mission objects hook to replace the regular model with the scaled down version, without having to mess with additional ship slots etc.

ArenaNet did something similar with one of last years's Story addOns for Guild Wars 2. There was a sequence where you had to fly and chase a Star-Destroyer sized Elder Dragon on a Rail-shoter like sequence. Due to it being humungous and breaking the world boundaries they scaled everything down including the player model etc.


It would at least be way easier than having to rescale all the tunnel elments.
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Post by Ace Antilles » Tue May 19, 2020 7:51 pm

General_Trageton wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 pm
It would at least be way easier than having to rescale all the tunnel elments.
On the flip side the Death Star opts could use a few new textures anyway ;)
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Post by Vince T » Tue May 19, 2020 7:59 pm

Don't tempt me!
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Post by Darksaber » Tue May 19, 2020 8:38 pm

Actually having to change POV each time could be bypassed, you could just add a Cockpit Hardpoint to the Cockpit opt

Gunner opts shouldn't be affected, trouble is I would have to rescale 9 opts as there are 3 different Falcons :(
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Post by Vince T » Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 pm

Not really. Since it's just relevant for the Death Star mission, only the classic Falcon is relevant, IMO. I wouldn't bother rescaling the others.

Unless anybody comes up with the ludicrous idea of recreating that SSD wreckage chase from TFA.


....


hmmmmm
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Post by Ace Antilles » Tue May 19, 2020 9:18 pm

General_Trageton wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 pm
Not really. Since it's just relevant for the Death Star mission, only the classic Falcon is relevant, IMO. I wouldn't bother rescaling the others.
Unless anybody comes up with the ludicrous idea of recreating that SSD wreckage chase from TFA.
hmmmmm
DS means you can choose which Falcon to fly when installing. For example my in game one is the Lando version.
So in theory you would have do all 3 to cover all the choices people have
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Post by Vince T » Tue May 19, 2020 9:27 pm

True but my answer would be the same. If we were to create such a tweak, I'd say stick with the canon source material.
Death Star 2 run = Classic Falcon with Lando and Mr. Pancake. Simple as that.
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Post by Darksaber » Tue May 19, 2020 11:22 pm

True it would make better sense just to use the lando falcon, it would cut down a lot of messing about rescaling all of them

Which ever falcon you install, you could have the small lando falcon swapped using (missionname).ini files
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Post by maggee » Wed May 20, 2020 12:16 am

General_Trageton wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:27 pm
True but my answer would be the same. If we were to create such a tweak, I'd say stick with the canon source material.
Death Star 2 run = Classic Falcon with Lando and Mr. Pancake. Simple as that.
I would prefer this to be honest, I pick that version of the falcon because of the death star 2 mission. I would actually rather my falcon had Han and Chewie but the only time I fly it was for that mission so I followed the canon with the install

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Post by Darksaber » Wed May 20, 2020 1:29 am

Doesn't work :( well I can't get it to work

There already is a 1b7m1w.ini in the missions folder

inside the text file are the lines

Code: Select all

;1b7m1w.ini

[Resdata]
Resdata\Planet2.dat

DO NOT delete these lines

To simply test if the Falcon was swapped with another craft I tried replacing the Millennium Falcon with the Family Transport (Otana)

Add these lines to the 1b7m1w.ini

Code: Select all

[HangarObjects]
FlightModels\MillenniumFalcon2.opt = FlightModels\FamilyTransport.opt
FlightModels\MillenniumFalcon2Cockpit.opt = FlightModels\FamilyTransportCockpit.opt
FlightModels\MillenniumFalcon2Exterior.opt = FlightModels\FamilyTransportExterior.opt
In game the craft remained the Falcon and not the Otana :(

Tested by replacing the Falcon with the Xwing and Assault Gunboat, it remained the Falcon :(

Either I'm doing something wrong, which I don't think I am

It states in the Xwa_Hook_Hangars_Readme.txt

Code: Select all

The replacement of a base opt with an exterior opt is ignored: lines like "FlightModels\ObjectA.opt = FlightModels\ObjectAExterior.opt" are ignored.
Not sure if this has something to do with it
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Post by Driftwood » Wed May 20, 2020 2:25 am

Ehh... I don't think you can hook replace the player craft in a mission. I know you can't hook the exterior opt and change the interior hangar, the interior hangar seems to be hardcoded to whatever opt is installed in that slot selected in AlliED.

If you could do both that would open up so many possibilities for mission design and free up so many slots in theory...

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Post by Driftwood » Wed May 20, 2020 2:33 am

Also in relation to the Rebel Hangar mission bugs there was a fix posted last year that resolves the reported issues.
Jaeven wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:24 am
Both B0M09 and B4M5 have been fixed. Just a matter of setting waypoints and minor repositioning of ships.

In my test runs I had no issues, but if there are any other bugs, be sure to post them.

http://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3/downlo ... hp?id=1812
These issues should not still be occurring, unless the installer hasn't been updated with the updated mission files. Which, if it hasn't I know I'd appreciate it if they could be when convenient so we can resolve this reported issue.

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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:35 am

Rescaling the Falcon would have potential implications for the VR hook - you'd have to reduce the sensitivity of any translation motions by the scaling factor. I'm sure Blue Max could work it out, though.

Rescaling the Death Star opts themselves could result in not having enough time to escape before the fireball gets you, even at maximum speed, since you'd have a longer distance to fly.

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Post by Vince T » Wed May 20, 2020 6:17 am

Actually the idea of rescaling the DS2 was only meant for the individual modules‘ diameter. The length would stay unchanged. This is also necessary because editing the mission in AlliEd is nigh impossible.
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Post by JeremyaFr » Wed May 20, 2020 9:04 am

Darksaber wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 1:29 am
Doesn't work :( well I can't get it to work

To simply test if the Falcon was swapped with another craft I tried replacing the Millennium Falcon with the Family Transport (Otana)
Hello,
You can try the [Objects] section in the ini file.

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Post by Darksaber » Wed May 20, 2020 11:25 am

[Objects] Works :) Thanks

I was reading the wrong readme should have been reading Xwa_Hook_Mission_Objects_Readme.txt :? :D

Anyhow I shrank down the Falcon. I added a Cockpit Hardpoint to the shank down base opt, which I thought would have overrode the Cockpit POV settings of the parent Falcon, sad to say it didn't, since I'm just exchanging one craft for another, I guess the cockpit hardpoint doesn't override the parent cockpit POV, only if the cockpit hardpoint was placed on the parent Falcon would it override the cockpit POV, which would be pointless as it would still override the "symbiont" opts

Stuck now!
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Post by Jacendb » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:13 pm

Ace Antilles wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:18 pm
SharpEdge wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:08 am
I feel like scaling changes and new collision boxes and maybe turret placement has buffed a lot of the larger ship and skewed a lot of difficulty balance out of wack.

I just don't remember my entire AI squad getting shredded by Container Transports on the first Convoy Attack mission on Medium.

Is there any other input on this? I understand most hardcore players don't touch the normal campaign after a point so maybe it's overlooked.

Any git gud comments will be noted as unhelpful. An aesthetics mod shouldn't effect difficulty. Maybe there's more complex stuff going on though.
Download the Container Transport v2.2. It was made too tough with too many weapons.
It was fixed a while ago, That should help. See the readme file.
https://www.xwaupgrade.com/download/mod ... t_v2.2.exe
Thanks for this! I've been playing this mission for over an hour. Videos on youtube didn't show every ship being destroyed in no time. Once updated the container the mission was a piece of cake.
I agree with other people that this fix should be added to a new version of the whole pack as it is a bug and makes the game unbeatable.

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