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Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:00 am
by Mark_Farlander
Hello pilots,
using the Mission 3D Viewer (thanks again, Jeremy) I've found that when a Flight Group has more than 1 unit, most of the formations have the Start 1 point referring to the "center of mass" of the Flight Group, but there are also a few formations, such as the Double Astern, where the Start 1 point refers to the coordinates of the leader (#1) of the Flight Group.
This might explain why the Double Astern formation is rarely used in the campaign missions, whereas the Double Astern Mirror is much more frequent.

Further tests are required to have a full list of which formations have the Start 1 on the center of mass and which ones have it on the Flight Group leader.

Edit: the center of mass of a Flight Group is always intended as if the FG were composed by 6 units, no matter its actual size.

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:26 am
by Mark_Farlander
OK, here is what I found out: the are 3 types of Flight Group formations regarding the Start 1 point coordinates.

Type 1: Formations where the Start 1 point indicates the coordinates of the leader of the Flight Group.
List of type 1 formations (formation number in AlliED):
Vic (1)
Line Astern (3)
Line Abreast (4)
Double Astern (7)
Stacked High (9)
High X (10)
High Vic (12)
Reverse Line Astern (14)
Abreast Right (16)
Wing Forward (18)
Line Astern Up (20)
Abreast V (22)
Abreast Inverted V (23)

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:08 am
by Mark_Farlander
Type 2: Formations where the Start 1 point indicates the center of mass of the Flight Group, calculated as if the Flight Group had all 6 objects (wave of 6).
List of type 2 formations (formation number in AlliED):
Finger Four (2)
Diamond 1 (8)
Double Astern Mirror (24)*
Double Stacked Astern (25)
Double Stacked High (26)
Diamond 2 (27)
Diamond 3 (28)
Flat Pentagon (29)
Side Pentagon (30)
Front Pentagon (31)
Flat Hexagon (32)
Side Hexagon (33)
Front Hexagon (34)

*Space between objects is doubled than in Double Astern, but only in X direction

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:27 am
by Mark_Farlander
Type 3: Formations where the leader is placed at a distance from the Start 1 point equal to the spacing, and the direction of the shift depends on the orientation angle.
List of type 3 formations (formation number in AlliED):
Echelon Right (5)
Echelon Left (6)
Vic Abreast (11)
Reverse High Vic (13)
Stacked Low (15)**
Abreast Left (17)
Wing Back (19)
Line Astern Down (21)**

**The leader is "shifted down" on the Z axis

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:44 am
by Phoenix Leader
This might explain a number of things...

By the way, a few considerations:

1. Pentagons and Hexagons formations are all type 2 (Start 1 at the center)

2. All line formations are type 1 (Start 1 on the leader) except Stacked Low and Abreast Left

3. Abreast V formations (standard and inverted) are both type 1

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:22 am
by Phoenix Leader
The fact that pentagons and hexagons are all centered whereas the lines are usually leader centered makes me think that the "category" depends on the shape, but Vic Abreast (11) and Vic (1) belong to different categories despite being simply rotated on X axis.

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:40 am
by Mark_Farlander
To recap:
Formations with Start 1 point on the center of mass (type 2):
Pentagons (29, 30, 31), Hexagons (32, 33, 34), Diamonds (8, 27, 28), Finger Four (2) and all Double lines (24, 25, 26) except Double Astern


All the other formations are "leader centered" (Start 1 on the leader) or "leader shifted" (Start 1 translated from the leader)

Leader centered formations: formations with Start 1 point on the leader (type 1):
All line formations (3, 4, 9, 14, 16) except Stacked Low and Abreast Left, the standard Vics (1, 12), the standard Wing (18), Abreast Vs (22, 23), High X (10), Line Astern Up (20) and Double Astern (7)

Leader shifted formations: formations with Start 1 point translated from the leader (type 3):
Echelons (5, 6), the inverted Vics (11, 13), the inverted Wing (19), Stacked Low (15), Abreast Left (17) and Line Astern Down (21)

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:55 am
by Phoenix Leader
Well, it seems that the standard not polygonal formations tend to be leader centered, whereas the inverted ones "leader shifted".
Take the Vics, the Wing and the Line Astern Up for example.

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:08 am
by Mark_Farlander
Yeah, also the Stacked High (leader centered) and Stacked Low (leader shifted) follow this logic.


The Double Astern being leader centered is strange though, it's the only leader centered Double Line formation.
Ironically, I opened this topic with the comparison Double Astern vs Double Astern Mirror.

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:51 am
by keiranhalcyon7
Could you clarify the shifted formations? The formation is centered on the 2nd ship? Or the "0th" ship?

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am
by Mark_Farlander
The shifted formations (or leader shifted formations aka type 3) have the Start 1 point on the 0th craft, which obviously does not exist.

Note that the coordinates of the 0th craft are non-existent for the inverted Vics, I mean Vic Abreast (11) and Reverse High Vic (13).

Re: Formations and Start 1 coordinates

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:17 pm
by Bman
Great info. Thanks Mark